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Assange to face extradition

MSM=main stream media?

If so, so what?
So what?
You appear to be saying that there should be no measures by which individuals can attempt to expose perceived state 'wrong-doing' outside of the MSM, but you'd be happy for MSM editors to 'police' that territory?
 
Eh? I haven't mentioned the MSM.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.
I attempting to explore if there's anything more nuanced behind your statement that you "despise the concept of Wikileaks", or is it just that you think that citizens should just trust states to get on with whatever they want and STFU?
 
The U.S could but it's more likely to succeed in Sweden. Sweden has form on this whilst in the UK there are more safeguards within the legal process.
The safeguards in UK/US extraditions are minimal. If he goes to Sweden, the UK would have to give its consent to any onward extradition, making it a trilateral instead of bilateral process.

If the Yanks wanted him for prosecution, they'd ask the UK.
 
I attempting to explore if there's anything more nuanced behind your statement that you "despise the concept of Wikileaks" ...
Well of course there is, but let's do this the other way around.

Do you believe that state workers should be free to disseminate any confidential information that they feel is in the public interest, and that sites like Wikileaks should encourage them to do so?
 
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The safeguards in UK/US extraditions are minimal. If he goes to Sweden, the UK would have to give its consent to any onward extradition, making it a trilateral instead of bilateral process.
Only whilst he's being investigated for the reason we extradited him to Sweden. After that (if he's acquitted or the case is closed) Sweden can do what they like with him without reference to the UK.
 
I do. It would help ensure that secret dealings between countries were, at the very least, less machiavellian and immorally self-serving.
I don't. Given that we should apply the same legal principles to everyone, not different ones to those we do or don't like, you're effectively advocating allowing spies to leak the kind of information that I mentioned before, without sanction.
 
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If the Yanks wanted him for prosecution, they'd ask the UK.

The US could get him any time they want if they really wanted to. False flag car bomb in Knightsbridge causing the building to be damaged and evacuated would do it. Or CIA shell corporation buys the building and turfs out the Ecuadorians. It probably wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility to get somebody inside and Litvinenko him if necessary.
 
The US could get him any time they want if they really wanted to. False flag car bomb in Knightsbridge causing the building to be damaged and evacuated would do it. Or CIA shell corporation buys the building and turfs out the Ecuadorians. It probably wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility to get somebody inside and Litvinenko him if necessary.

Fantasy nonsense.
 
Well of course there is, but let's do this the other way around.

Do you believe that state workers should be free to disseminate any confidential information that they feel is in the public interest, and that sites like Wikileaks should encourage them to do so?

If they are whistleblowing on information that exposes mass surveillance on a previously unimagined scale then yes they should be given special dispensation and protected from prosecution, Snowden is a genuine hero.
 
If they are whistleblowing on information that exposes mass surveillance on a previously unimagined scale then yes they should be given special dispensation and protected from prosecution ...
Why?

On what basis is it decided which information is whistleblowable and which isn't?

And who does the deciding?
 
Why?

On what basis is it decided which information is whistleblowable and which isn't?

Who does the deciding?

There are cases that are just so clear cut, like the exposure of mass surveillance, that they shouldn't really be up for debate. In the same way that if a whistleblower exposed gas chambers in Surrey or something they should be immune from prosecution.

In reality of course the government/security state (more the latter than the former) does the deciding.
 
Isn't it incredible that mass surveillance in this country is more pervasive than it was under the Stasi yet Stasi is still the byword for dystopian mass surveillance, perhaps we should start calling overbearing middle managers 'the GCHQ'?
 
Isn't it incredible that mass surveillance in this country is more pervasive than it was under the Stasi yet Stasi is still the byword for dystopian mass surveillance, perhaps we should start calling overbearing middle managers 'the GCHQ'?

Yep. Or start calling 'GCHQ' The Stasi...
 
Isn't it incredible that mass surveillance in this country is more pervasive than it was under the Stasi yet Stasi is still the byword for dystopian mass surveillance, perhaps we should start calling overbearing middle managers 'the GCHQ'?

In some ways yes in some ways no, GCHQ can tap into anything pretty much, but the UK doesn't have anywhere like the proportion of the country on its security pay roll. If they'd had 21st century comms in the GDR, they would have been as pervasive as current UK system, but we don't maintain a collection of jars of the smell of dissidents (for giving to the border patrol dogs) and unless you are mentally ill you can still go down the pub and say what you like without worrying that at least a couple of people in the pub is going to grass you up to Stasi HQ
 
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Isn't it incredible that mass surveillance in this country is more pervasive than it was under the Stasi yet Stasi is still the byword for dystopian mass surveillance, perhaps we should start calling overbearing middle managers 'the GCHQ'?
When Germany reunified a lot of the ex secret police got jobs as taxi drivers. Apparently it was really handy because when you got in a cab you didn't even have to tell the driver where you lived. You could just say "home please".
 
The box at the bottom is this is useful:

Julian Assange says UN ruling on arbitrary detention a ‘vindication’ - FT.com


"The formal opinion that Julian Assange is being “arbitrarily detained” is a bizarre and unconvincing document.

It is only an opinion — it is not a ruling or judgment — and so it has no legal effect as between the parties. The law stands just as it was before the document was published. This means that if Mr Assange leaves the Ecuadorean embassy in London he still faces arrest for breaching his bail, and extradition to Sweden to face a rape allegation.

The content of the report is extraordinary. The three members of the panel that formed the majority have concluded that Mr Assange’s predicament is “of such gravity as give the deprivation of liberty an arbitrary character”.

This is not correct.

Mr Assange is free to leave the embassy at any point. Once he leaves, he will be expected to comply with the law of the land.

Hiding from legal consequences is not arbitrary detention.

Mr Assange is only in this situation because he lost his challenge to the extradition request, with the benefit of lengthy appeals up to the UK Supreme Court. Few appellants in English legal history have been given as many opportunities to present their case. But he lost at each stage.

The report, however, is not unanimous. In a brief but powerful eight-paragraph dissent, the former war crimes prosecutor and distinguished academic Vladimir Tochilovsky deftly demolishes the majority’s reasoning.

He observes that “fugitives are often self-contained within the places where they evade arrest and detention”. His implicit disdain for his fellow panel members is stark.

David Allen Green writes the law and policy blog at FT.com "
 
This latest article by John Pilger explains Assange's situation very well and with regard to other whistle blowers

Freeing Julian Assange: the last chapter

An excellent article. This really hits the nail on the head:

"What is certain is that the decent world owes much to Julian Assange. He told us how indecent power behaves in secret, how it lies and manipulates and engages in great acts of violence, sustaining wars that kill and maim and turn millions into the refugees now in the news."

That will be the judgment of history.
 
This latest article by John Pilger explains Assange's situation very well and with regard to other whistle blowers

Freeing Julian Assange: the last chapter
This is why you should never trust any Assangist's spin on the law:
The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention - the international tribunal that adjudicates and decides whether governments comply with their human rights obligations - has ruled that Julian Assange has been detained unlawfully by Britain and Sweden.
The working group is not a tribunal and it does not make rulings. Its opinions are completely unenforceable and bind no one.

...since he was arrested and held in London under a European Extradition Warrant, itself now discredited by Parliament.
When did this happen and what does it mean?

The UN Working Group bases its judgements...
Again, using language that suggests this working group is judicial in nature and has any legal authority.

Telling us this truth alone earns Assange his freedom, whereas justice is his right.
Yes, the great man should not be troubled with petty matters such as allegations of rape.
 

There are times when governments break the laws they've sworn to uphold, and then do their utmost to ensure that no one finds out. There are times when large corporations violate the law, and attempt to keep the fact secret.

Without whistleblowers, chances are good that these illegal activities - activities that may have major consequences for many people - will not be discovered.

Is that an acceptable state of affairs?
 
There are times when governments break the laws they've sworn to uphold, and then do their utmost to ensure that no one finds out. There are times when large corporations violate the law, and attempt to keep the fact secret.

Without whistleblowers, chances are good that these illegal activities - activities that may have major consequences for many people - will not be discovered.

Is that an acceptable state of affairs?

Equally unacceptable for whistleblowers to get hung out to dry, whilst those who encourged them pursue self aggrandizement , the champagne and canapee lifestyle and then when it starts to unravel martyrdom
 
In some ways yes in some ways no, GCHQ can tap into anything pretty much, but the UK doesn't have anywhere like the proportion of the country on its security pay roll. If they'd had 21st century comms in the GDR, they would have been as pervasive as current UK system, but we don't maintain a collection of jars of the smell of dissidents (for giving to the border patrol dogs) and unless you are mentally ill you can still go down the pub and say what you like without worrying that at least a couple of people in the pub is going to grass you up to Stasi HQ

I agree that the Stasi would have used the same systems as GCHQ if they had access to them but at the same time the fact that surveillance and data collection all takes place in the background with no obvious immediate consequences (unlike in the GDR) is the result of the fact that our state feels a lot more secure than the GDR did. If we had anything approaching an existential threat to the establishment things would start to look very different very quickly, just think about the behaviour of mi5 towards the Graunid because during the Snowden release.
 
I don't. Given that we should apply the same legal principles to everyone, not different ones to those we do or don't like, you're effectively advocating allowing spies to leak the kind of information that I mentioned before, without sanction.
You seem to be conflating whistle-blowing and espionage.
 
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I agree that the Stasi would have used the same systems as GCHQ if they had access to them but at the same time the fact that surveillance and data collection all takes place in the background with no obvious immediate consequences (unlike in the GDR) is the result of the fact that our state feels a lot more secure than the GDR did. If we had anything approaching an existential threat to the establishment things would start to look very different very quickly, just think about the behaviour of mi5 towards the Graunid because during the Snowden release.

Noone in there right mind would have smuggled a filing cabinet out of the Kremlin and given it to Berliner Zeitung to publish and be damned
 
The box at the bottom is this is useful:

Julian Assange says UN ruling on arbitrary detention a ‘vindication’ - FT.com


"The formal opinion that Julian Assange is being “arbitrarily detained” is a bizarre and unconvincing document.

It is only an opinion — it is not a ruling or judgment — and so it has no legal effect as between the parties. The law stands just as it was before the document was published. This means that if Mr Assange leaves the Ecuadorean embassy in London he still faces arrest for breaching his bail, and extradition to Sweden to face a rape allegation.

The content of the report is extraordinary. The three members of the panel that formed the majority have concluded that Mr Assange’s predicament is “of such gravity as give the deprivation of liberty an arbitrary character”.

This is not correct.

Mr Assange is free to leave the embassy at any point. Once he leaves, he will be expected to comply with the law of the land.

Hiding from legal consequences is not arbitrary detention.

Mr Assange is only in this situation because he lost his challenge to the extradition request, with the benefit of lengthy appeals up to the UK Supreme Court. Few appellants in English legal history have been given as many opportunities to present their case. But he lost at each stage.

The report, however, is not unanimous. In a brief but powerful eight-paragraph dissent, the former war crimes prosecutor and distinguished academic Vladimir Tochilovsky deftly demolishes the majority’s reasoning.

He observes that “fugitives are often self-contained within the places where they evade arrest and detention”. His implicit disdain for his fellow panel members is stark.

David Allen Green writes the law and policy blog at FT.com "
Just like Aung San Suu Kyi was free to leave her house arrest at any time?
 
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