Assange to face extradition

[TruXta]

You clearly have access to more information than me on this to be able to pronounce this, judge him a coward, etc.

I can't be bothered. Also stop it with the sarcasm, it's not a strong point of yours.

 

[laptop]

As I said earlier, if he has a well-founded (in the legal sense) fear of being persecuted, then, yes, that does, according to international law, take precedence. Abu Qatada.

Except the UK and ECHR courts have repeatedly found that the US legal system does not practice torture, nor is to be tried in it persecution.

You may disagree with them. But an argument in accordance with the facts has a certain aesthetic appeal which yours lacks.

 

[belboid]

I don't think there's a whole lot that's genuine about the bloke except for his ambition tbh. Anyway, I'll leave it at that - somehow I suspect we won't agree on much of this any time soon. A good day to you, squire.

i think we can also agree that he is an arrogant, overbearing arsehole, who makes it very difficult for people to defend him, and very easy for people to loathe him.

 

[belboid]

Except the UK and ECHR courts have repeatedly found that the US legal system does not practice torture, nor is to be tried in it persecution.

You may disagree with them. But an argument in accordance with the facts has a certain aesthetic appeal which yours lacks.

Political persecution is political persecution. If the crime is political, it is persecution. And, yes, I know Sweden wont extradite for political crimes, but that is what he is trying to force them to say now.

 

[TruXta]

i think we can also agree that he is an arrogant, overbearing arsehole, who makes it very difficult for people to defend him, and very easy for people to loathe him.

Alright, that's one thing we do agree on

 

[teqniq]

This latest revelation is just a 'hello, I exist you know' to the media, who couldn't give a fuck. Celebrity Luke Bozier.

Whilst you are probably close to the mark with this, I found it a bit odd that it was published in the Graun seeing as how they fell out over rights or somesuch - I would have thought that they wouldn't give him the time of day but it doesn't look to have much negative spin imo.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can't be bothered. Also stop it with the sarcasm, it's not a strong point of yours.

Well I'm quite amazed at the number of people queuing up on here to say what Assange should do, even if he knows he's being fitted up. And calling him a coward for not doing it. Personally, I wouldn't presume to tell him what to do in such a circumstance.

 

[elbows]

Well I'm quite amazed at the number of people queuing up on here to say what Assange should do, even if he knows he's being fitted up. And calling him a coward for not doing it. Personally, I wouldn't presume to tell him what to do in such a circumstance.

I've not told him what to do. I've pointed out all the ways he already lost by taking the action he did. Its up to him whether he values the cause more than his own skin.

I have very little idea what he really thought would happen when he started his quest. Many of the themes he is interested in should leave little room for naivety, but given that in an interview some years ago he claimed that one of his aims was to make people feel like they could whistleblow and leak without fearing severe consequences, I do have to wonder how much he really thought things through. At the very least his risk calculations seem to have exposed a raft of contradictions and if he has escaped one trap then he has surely leapt into another.

I remain disgusted by the willingness of some to disregard victims and justice, and give Assange a get out of jail free card because of his struggles. Even if you think its a complete stitch-up I do not see how that glosses over the fact he totally undermined the concept of making the powerful accountable with his own wriggling attempts to avoid accountability himself. He isnt offering anything that could free us from the terrible failings of power, for he was trying to get in on that act himself. And at the very least he took stupid risks and liberties along the way, and then shot himself and the cause in the foot repeatedly while trying to avoid the consequences of those actions.

 

[andysays]

It was a massıve spanner ın the works. They had to re-organıze whole sectors of theır ıntellıgence--and that's the stuff they've admıtted to. It slowed them down by months, thus savıng mıllıons of lıves.

But more ımportant that that, ıt showed them that they're not ınvulnerable. Indeed, Assange's greatest achıevement to date has precısely been to remınd the crımınals who have seızed control of our governments that they can be brought to account for theır actıons.

The only massive spanners I can see here are you and your mate Jules...

How exactly have any of those "crımınals who have seızed control of our governments" actually been "brought to account for theır actıons"?

Tony Blair and George W Bush (to mention just two examples) are still free to roam the world stage at will, whereas your mate has been confined to the Ecuadorian embassy in London for the past 11 months.

And this is resisting "domınatıon ın ıts broadest sense''?

You plum

 

[smokedout]

nonsense. It would require some behind the scenes conversations by spooks, and friendly government officials, and it most certainly would not be particularly oblique compared to other american actions. Cuba,Vietnam, hell, just look at the plot of Argo! A plot like this would be a piece of piss for them.

it would require the CIA having two sleeper agents in place on the off chance assange turned up, one sleeper agent with a fairly extensive history of activism, one who worked in a museum, both have checkable work/family histories. it would require those agents to be good enough to be able to risk them face cross-examination in open court and also to convince several friends and family members to give corroborating statements to the police about the events surrounding the alleged offences (which they have)

it would have required both of those agents to convince assange in one case to stay at her flat for several days and the other to spend the night with him - and to at least behave in a manner that means even he has never been confident enough to deny the allegations, which dont just include rape but three counts of sexual assault

these women then did not accuse him of rape, but sought advise at the local police station on whether they could force him to take an std test - the police, who would have to be in on it would then press ahead with charges

at some point this elaborate conspiracy would have seemed to go wrong, when charges were dropped and assange was allowed to travel away from the country where everyone says is conspiting to hand him over to the US, and let him leave. at this point the womens lawyer conspired with the cia to appeal this decision, which was granted and the charges were restored and a new prosecutor appointed - this prosecutor, who presumably is also in on it, is a well known with a reputation as being a feminist who has spoken out many times about the scandal of low rape conviction rates in sweden

by now its too late an assange was in the uk, but he was then given, by the uk government, who presumably are also in on it, unprecedented opportunity to appeal the european arrest warrant (which wasnt unusual despite assange's claims, 10,000 are issued a year and no-one has been given access like assange was to challenge them before)

its fucking conspiraloon bullshit to suggest this is a set up, they arent anywhere near that good, its up there with 911 shit and all the rest of it and it is really fucking telling how keen some people have been to swallow this shit just because they think assange's cool

 

[cesare]

Assange and the conspiraloons walk side by side. It's all anti-capitalism and occupy and conspiraloons and CIAlizards and V masks.

 

[smokedout]

and just to add, this hugely elaborate and complex conspiracy to get assange, didnt fucking work - why such a complex rape allegation, why a rape allegation at all if sweden were so keen to extra-rendition him then why didnt they just fucking extra-rendition him when he was living it up in what he claimed at the time was the safest country in the world

 

[free spirit]

I was initially highly suspicious of this whole situation, but having read a fair amount, including the leaked police interview reports, I now think there probably is at least a fair amount of truth to the allegations against him.

It seems like he's a pretty odd individual, with some very odd ideas about women, and at that time was probably believing his own legend and pretty much viewing these women as groupies who wouldn't really mind what he did even if they'd been going on about wearing a condom earlier in the night etc.

If he wasn't so egotistical, he could probably have best furthered the cause of wikileaks and the wider cause it represents by handing wikileaks over to the rest of the team, then owning up to it and facing the jail time as he'd probably be out by now anyway.

I do however still understand his concern that once in prison, he'd then lose the ability to claim asylum in the way he is doing if the US did then demand his extradition - I do think that this fear of his probably is genuine, and probably does have some basis in the truth of the situation, but that's not in anyway saying it was set up in the first place, just that the US might take the opportunity to get him extradited while he was unable to run to the nearest embassy.

 

[TopCat]

If he wasn't so egotistical, he could probably have best furthered the cause of wikileaks and the wider cause it represents by handing wikileaks over to the rest of the team, then owning up to it and facing the jail time as he'd probably be out by now anyway.

This is a weird assessment of what he should do.

 

[TruXta]

it would require the CIA having two sleeper agents in place on the off chance assange turned up, one sleeper agent with a fairly extensive history of activism, one who worked in a museum, both have checkable work/family histories. it would require those agents to be good enough to be able to risk them face cross-examination in open court and also to convince several friends and family members to give corroborating statements to the police about the events surrounding the alleged offences (which they have)

it would have required both of those agents to convince assange in one case to stay at her flat for several days and the other to spend the night with him - and to at least behave in a manner that means even he has never been confident enough to deny the allegations, which dont just include rape but three counts of sexual assault

these women then did not accuse him of rape, but sought advise at the local police station on whether they could force him to take an std test - the police, who would have to be in on it would then press ahead with charges

at some point this elaborate conspiracy would have seemed to go wrong, when charges were dropped and assange was allowed to travel away from the country where everyone says is conspiting to hand him over to the US, and let him leave. at this point the womens lawyer conspired with the cia to appeal this decision, which was granted and the charges were restored and a new prosecutor appointed - this prosecutor, who presumably is also in on it, is a well known with a reputation as being a feminist who has spoken out many times about the scandal of low rape conviction rates in sweden

by now its too late an assange was in the uk, but he was then given, by the uk government, who presumably are also in on it, unprecedented opportunity to appeal the european arrest warrant (which wasnt unusual despite assange's claims, 10,000 are issued a year and no-one has been given access like assange was to challenge them before)

its fucking conspiraloon bullshit to suggest this is a set up, they arent anywhere near that good, its up there with 911 shit and all the rest of it and it is really fucking telling how keen some people have been to swallow this shit just because they think assange's cool

Hear fucking hear.

 

[Delroy Booth]

when put like that it's quite easy to see why he chose to do a runner rather than stand up in court and use that as his defence.

 

[weltweit]

Do you think Assange has a plan for the future?

And does it contain more than "continue to live in the embassy!" ?

 

[not-bono-ever]

it would require the CIA having two sleeper agents in place on the off chance assange turned up, one sleeper agent with a fairly extensive history of activism, one who worked in a museum, both have checkable work/family histories. it would require those agents to be good enough to be able to risk them face cross-examination in open court and also to convince several friends and family members to give corroborating statements to the police about the events surrounding the alleged offences (which they have)

it would have required both of those agents to convince assange in one case to stay at her flat for several days and the other to spend the night with him - and to at least behave in a manner that means even he has never been confident enough to deny the allegations, which dont just include rape but three counts of sexual assault

these women then did not accuse him of rape, but sought advise at the local police station on whether they could force him to take an std test - the police, who would have to be in on it would then press ahead with charges

at some point this elaborate conspiracy would have seemed to go wrong, when charges were dropped and assange was allowed to travel away from the country where everyone says is conspiting to hand him over to the US, and let him leave. at this point the womens lawyer conspired with the cia to appeal this decision, which was granted and the charges were restored and a new prosecutor appointed - this prosecutor, who presumably is also in on it, is a well known with a reputation as being a feminist who has spoken out many times about the scandal of low rape conviction rates in sweden

by now its too late an assange was in the uk, but he was then given, by the uk government, who presumably are also in on it, unprecedented opportunity to appeal the european arrest warrant (which wasnt unusual despite assange's claims, 10,000 are issued a year and no-one has been given access like assange was to challenge them before)

its fucking conspiraloon bullshit to suggest this is a set up, they arent anywhere near that good, its up there with 911 shit and all the rest of it and it is really fucking telling how keen some people have been to swallow this shit just because they think assange's cool

 

[belboid]

it would require the CIA having two sleeper agents in place on the off chance assange turned up, one sleeper agent with a fairly extensive history of activism, one who worked in a museum, both have checkable work/family histories. it would require those agents to be good enough to be able to risk them face cross-examination in open court and also to convince several friends and family members to give corroborating statements to the police about the events surrounding the alleged offences (which they have)

it would have required both of those agents to convince assange in one case to stay at her flat for several days and the other to spend the night with him - and to at least behave in a manner that means even he has never been confident enough to deny the allegations, which dont just include rape but three counts of sexual assault

these women then did not accuse him of rape, but sought advise at the local police station on whether they could force him to take an std test - the police, who would have to be in on it would then press ahead with charges

at some point this elaborate conspiracy would have seemed to go wrong, when charges were dropped and assange was allowed to travel away from the country where everyone says is conspiting to hand him over to the US, and let him leave. at this point the womens lawyer conspired with the cia to appeal this decision, which was granted and the charges were restored and a new prosecutor appointed - this prosecutor, who presumably is also in on it, is a well known with a reputation as being a feminist who has spoken out many times about the scandal of low rape conviction rates in sweden

by now its too late an assange was in the uk, but he was then given, by the uk government, who presumably are also in on it, unprecedented opportunity to appeal the european arrest warrant (which wasnt unusual despite assange's claims, 10,000 are issued a year and no-one has been given access like assange was to challenge them before)

its fucking conspiraloon bullshit to suggest this is a set up, they arent anywhere near that good, its up there with 911 shit and all the rest of it and it is really fucking telling how keen some people have been to swallow this shit just because they think assange's cool

or, as i said and you have chosen to ignore, it could be done by a couple of spooks influencing the swedes to press charges in a case where, had it been anyone else, there would be no charges at all. No need for the fantasy you had so much fun creating.

Stupid boy

 

[smokedout]

or, as i said and you have chosen to ignore, it could be done by a couple of spooks influencing the swedes to press charges in a case where, had it been anyone else, there would be no charges at all. No need for the fantasy you had so much fun creating.

Stupid boy

no charge for getting into bed with someone and rubbing your naked cock against them when you've been expressly asked to stop trying to initiate sexual contact, or for having sex with someone, without consent whilst they are asleep and not using a condom, despite, according to one of the alleged victims, this being something that had been argued about at length the previous night?

police attitudes aside, even for a nobody, with two alleged victims claiming similar things there would have been likely to have been charges, including in the UK where it has been firmly established that this would be rape under UK law.

assange is high profile, the offences are just as serious (more in some cases) as many of the things television presenters are currently being arrested for in the uk, of course these charges would very likely have proceeded with any high profile figure (and the prosecutor is an outspoken critic of the poor rate of rape convictions in sweden and is quite possibly using this as an example of what she rightly thinks should not be tolerated)

and im sure reactionary forces in the swedish government friendly with the US have egged them on, just as liberal forces in the swedish government might have tried to sweep it under the carpet (possibly one reason why three of the charges were dropped at one point) - but all that is irrelevent to what actually is alleged to have taken place, and the legal position as it now stands

 

[phildwyer]

Instant messages - so basically, instant urbans between two gchq employees - 'their timings are too convenient' is basically 'fucked if we know, but he's probably being fitted up'.

Yep. And the fact that ıt's ınformal chat rather than anythıng offıcıal shows that they really do belıeve ıt. They may well be guessıng, but theır guess ıs lıkely to be better than most.

 

[belboid]

no charge for getting into bed with someone and rubbing your naked cock against them when you've been expressly asked to stop trying to initiate sexual contact, or for having sex with someone, without consent whilst they are asleep and not using a condom, despite, according to one of the alleged victims, this being something that had been argued about at length the previous night?

police attitudes aside, even for a nobody, with two alleged victims claiming similar things there would have been likely to have been charges, including in the UK where it has been firmly established that this would be rape under UK law.

assange is high profile, the offences are just as serious (more in some cases) as many of the things television presenters are currently being arrested for in the uk, of course these charges would very likely have proceeded with any high profile figure (and the prosecutor is an outspoken critic of the poor rate of rape convictions in sweden and is quite possibly using this as an example of what she rightly thinks should not be tolerated)

and im sure reactionary forces in the swedish government friendly with the US have egged them on, just as liberal forces in the swedish government might have tried to sweep it under the carpet (possibly one reason why three of the charges were dropped at one point) - but all that is irrelevent to what actually is alleged to have taken place, and the legal position as it now stands

none of which has anything to do with the possibility of him being fitted up, which is what we were talking about.

You are just saying that you believe the women - which is also why you are repeating some of their claims as fact.

As you say it is very likely that there would be charges for a similar offence in the UK< I'm sure you'll be able to provide us with an example of that actually happening. Otherwise, I'd still tend to say - there is no way anyone but Assange would be facing charges and extradition for these allegations.

 

[phildwyer]

it would require the CIA having two sleeper agents in place on the off chance assange turned up, one sleeper agent with a fairly extensive history of activism, one who worked in a museum, both have checkable work/family histories. it would require those agents to be good enough to be able to risk them face cross-examination in open court and also to convince several friends and family members to give corroborating statements to the police about the events surrounding the alleged offences (which they have)

In other words, ıt would requıre the CIA to be a mınımally competent ıntellıgence agency.

Settıng up sleeper agents wıth verıfıable professıonal and personal hıstorıes, ınfıltratıng them ınto organızatıons consıdered subversıve, traınıng them to face cross-examınatıon ın court etc are very basıc spyıng technıques. All ıntellıgence agencıes do all of thıs all the tıme.

And the honeytrap ıs the easıest, oldest and most commonly used method ın the book.

The fact that you evıdently know none of thıs suggests a verıtably Truxtaesque degree of ıgnorance.

 

[belboid]

And the honeytrap ıs the easıest, oldest and most commonly used method of all.

especially if they know - as they would after years of surveillance - that their target was a horny old goat who would fuck anything that offered itself to him.



See what you bastards have done now?! You've got me agreeing with bloody dwyer. That's twice in a week, I need a lie down.

 

[TruXta]

especially if they know - as they would after years of surveillance - that their target was a horny old goat who would fuck anything that offered itself to him.



See what you bastards have done now?! You've got me agreeing with bloody dwyer. That's twice in a week, I need a lie down.

"would fuck anything that didn't offer itself to him".... seems more precise. As for dwyer. You've made your bed, now sleep with him.

 

[belboid]

"would fuck anything that didn't offer itself to him".... seems more precise. As for dwyer. You've made your bed, now sleep with him.

except they clearly did - what happened later is disputed, but that both women happily invited him into their home isnt denied.

And, even stopped clocks etc etc

 

[TruXta]

except they clearly did - what happened later is disputed, but that both women happily invited him into their home isnt denied.

And, even stopped clocks etc etc

I said SLEEP WITH HIM

 

[belboid]

I said SLEEP WITH HIM

they did that too.

 

[Balbi]

Yep. And the fact that ıt's ınformal chat rather than anythıng offıcıal shows that they really do belıeve ıt. They may well be guessıng, but theır guess ıs lıkely to be better than most.

Jazzz like post hoc ergo propter hoc there Phil. Water cooler gossip as fact.

 

[smokedout]

none of which has anything to do with the possibility of him being fitted up, which is what we were talking about.

You are just saying that you believe the women - which is also why you are repeating some of their claims as fact.

no I'm repeating the claims as claims - from two alleged victims of several serious alleged sexual assaults that you think should be ignored, thats more than you get in most of these cases where it's one person's word against another, of course these allegations should be pursued and they are certainly, under UK or swedish law, credible enough to initiate legal proceedings

arent you SWP, it might explain your attitude to these kinds of offences if you are

As you say it is very likely that there would be charges for a similar offence in the UK< I'm sure you'll be able to provide us with an example of that actually happening. Otherwise, I'd still tend to say - there is no way anyone but Assange would be facing charges and extradition for these allegations.

there are sexual assault charges less serious than these prosecuted everyday in the UK courts, have a look in your local paper