Assange to face extradition

[TruXta]

Also, it might have been posted before, but here's a Swedish jurist on the legal facts of the matter http://klamberg.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/extradition-of-assange-to-us-via-sweden.html

 

[J Ed]

Furthermore, how many extraordinary renditions of people IN SWEDEN took place? I'm not counting ER flights that went through Sweden.

During the War on Terror, two people were removed from Sweden (not including flights that used Sweden as a stop off point even after Sweden said not to) as far as we know

http://www.hrw.org/de/news/2004/11/21/swedish-tv4-kalla-fakta-program-broken-promise-part-iv

 

[TruXta]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/health/cia-vaccine-ruse-in-pakistan-may-have-harmed-polio-fight.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And that pertains to this case how?

You don't think I'm saying the CIA is trustworthy do you?

 

[frogwoman]

I wouldn't trust the UK or Ecuador though either ffs. And the UK has far closer ties to the US than Sweden.

 

[J Ed]

And that pertains to this case how?

You don't think I'm saying the CIA is trustworthy do you?

It only pertains to the case insofar that it's an example of how CIA practices during the War on Terror have caused people to be mistrustful of things that they otherwise wouldn't be. As is the case here, I think.

 

[tommers]

During the War on Terror, two people were removed from Sweden (not including flights that used Sweden as a stop off point even after Sweden said not to) as far as we know

http://www.hrw.org/de/news/2004/11/21/swedish-tv4-kalla-fakta-program-broken-promise-part-iv

and how many from the UK?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/22/british-cia-rendition-9-11

Over the next four years CIA rendition flights used British airports at least 210 times. The book reveals that Washington asked the UK for permission to build a large prison on Diego Garcia, the British territory in the Indian Ocean where the US has a large bomber base. The project was dropped, for logistical rather than legal reasons.

 

[TruXta]

During the War on Terror, two people were removed from Sweden (not including flights that used Sweden as a stop off point even after Sweden said not to) as far as we know

http://www.hrw.org/de/news/2004/11/21/swedish-tv4-kalla-fakta-program-broken-promise-part-iv

Yes, and they were given compensation in a Swedish court of law, and one of them were given a permanent residence permit in Sweden last year. They (the Swedes) did cock up, and they were taken to task for it. So much for the might of the CIA.

 

[TruXta]

It only pertains to the case insofar that it's an example of how CIA practices during the War on Terror have caused people to be mistrustful of things that they otherwise wouldn't be. As is the case here, I think.

See - I don't get how you can get that from this polio thing. If Assange did go to Sweden the media would be there in their thousands. There'd be demonstrations on the streets, governments would try to intervene. And these are the circumstances people think the CIA wants to engineer? What planet are you lot on?

 

[J Ed]

and how many from the UK?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/22/british-cia-rendition-9-11

Yeah, I think that the if they're going to do it why haven't they just done it from the UK? question is probably the most convincing for me here.

 

[phildwyer]

Well ıt seems that even the Brıtısh secret servıce thınk he's beıng framed:

''Authorities at GCHQ, the government eavesdropping agency, are facing embarrassing revelations about internal correspondence in which Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is discussed, apparently including speculation that he is being framed by Swedish authorities seeking his extradition on rape allegations.
The records were revealed by Assange himself in a Sunday night interview with Spanish television programme Salvados in which he explained that an official request for information gave him access to instant messages that remained unclassified by GCHQ.
A message from September 2012, read out by Assange, apparently says: "They are trying to arrest him on suspicion of XYZ … It is definitely a fit-up… Their timings are too convenient right after Cablegate."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/20/julian-assange-gchq-messages-extradition

 

[phildwyer]

You don't think I'm saying the CIA is trustworthy do you?

Of course not.

You're not that stupıd.

You're much stupıder. You thınk they're ımpotent:

So much for the might of the CIA.

Serıously, how stupıd and ıgnorant does one have to be to scorn the power of the CIA?

It ıs a feat of truly Truxtaesque stupıdıty.

 

[TruXta]

Of course not.

You're not that stupıd.

You're much stupıder. You thınk they're ımpotent:



Serıously, how stupıd and ıgnorant does one have to be to scorn the power of the CIA?

It ıs a feat of truly Truxtaesque stupıdıty.

Impotent? Stop talking about yourself. I'm merely pointing out that even the mighty CIA, which is clearly giving lots of you boners (or would if you could), isn't all it's cracked up to be by the likes of yourselves and Jazzz and so on.

 

[Balbi]

Well ıt seems that even the Brıtısh secret servıce thınk he's beıng framed:

''Authorities at GCHQ, the government eavesdropping agency, are facing embarrassing revelations about internal correspondence in which Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is discussed, apparently including speculation that he is being framed by Swedish authorities seeking his extradition on rape allegations.
The records were revealed by Assange himself in a Sunday night interview with Spanish television programme Salvados in which he explained that an official request for information gave him access to instant messages that remained unclassified by GCHQ.
A message from September 2012, read out by Assange, apparently says: "They are trying to arrest him on suspicion of XYZ … It is definitely a fit-up… Their timings are too convenient right after Cablegate."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/20/julian-assange-gchq-messages-extradition

Instant messages - so basically, instant urbans between two gchq employees - 'their timings are too convenient' is basically 'fucked if we know, but he's probably being fitted up'.

A second instant message conversation from August last year between two unknown people saw them call Assange a fool for thinking Sweden would drop its attempt to extradite him.
The conversation, as read out by Assange, goes: "He reckons he will stay in the Ecuadorian embassy for six to 12 months when the charges against him will be dropped, but that is not really how it works now is it? He's a fool… Yeah … A highly optimistic fool."

basically what I said about filibustering his way out.

 

[J Ed]

Impotent? Stop talking about yourself. I'm merely pointing out that even the mighty CIA, which is clearly giving lots of you boners (or would if you could), isn't all it's cracked up to be by the likes of yourselves and Jazzz and so on.

Just because I think the CIA is capable of this, which frankly would not be close to the most outrageous or complex action undertaken by the CIA, doesn't make it okay to lump me in with an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well ıt seems that even the Brıtısh secret servıce thınk he's beıng framed:

''Authorities at GCHQ, the government eavesdropping agency, are facing embarrassing revelations about internal correspondence in which Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is discussed, apparently including speculation that he is being framed by Swedish authorities seeking his extradition on rape allegations.
The records were revealed by Assange himself in a Sunday night interview with Spanish television programme Salvados in which he explained that an official request for information gave him access to instant messages that remained unclassified by GCHQ.
A message from September 2012, read out by Assange, apparently says: "They are trying to arrest him on suspicion of XYZ … It is definitely a fit-up… Their timings are too convenient right after Cablegate."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/20/julian-assange-gchq-messages-extradition

If he thinks that helps his case, then he should present it in court.

 

[Balbi]

I do like the idea that GCHQ has its own instant message service, the procrastinating bastards

 

[TopCat]

Why is he hiding in that Embassy? Who does he think is about to arrest him?

The UK police are in the corridors of the building that houses the embassy. It was on the news months ago.

 

[TruXta]

Just because I think the CIA is capable of this, which frankly would not be close to the most outrageous or complex action undertaken by the CIA, doesn't make it okay to lump me in with an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist.

I apologise. I should've worded it more carefully really.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The CIA are well-resourced, powerful, unaccountable, and often extraordinarily inept. I don't see anyone here fantasising about their all-pervasive influence.

 

[J Ed]

I apologise. I should've worded it more carefully really.

Thanks

 

[TruXta]

The CIA are well-resourced, powerful, unaccountable, and often extraordinarily inept. I don't see anyone here fantasising about their all-pervasive influence.

Except for Professor Piss you mean?

 

[tommers]

The UK police are in the corridors of the building that houses the embassy. It was on the news months ago.

They were leading questions.

The UK police are trying to arrest him so that they can extradite him because apparently they need to send him to Sweden so that the Swedes can arrest him and extradite him.

 

[belboid]

Even accepting all that, I reckon I'd have come to a point by now having made such a big stink over it that I would go back thinking I'd drawn enough of the spotlight to stop the fix, unless it was actually the charges themselves I was running from. Because the CIA would carry on after you if they were involved to the depths he thinks even if he slipped away from this trial, so no value in staying on the run. Can't really do more than speculate about what's going on in his head, of course.

Once he's made the move (to the embassy) he cant really do anything else without there being some backing down by one side or the other. He's stuck now, cant go forward or back.

Let's assume he's innocent. Let's also assume that contrary to some posters' imaginations, the CIA is not the eminence gris behind all Western governments, and that a country such as Sweden has an interest in upholding its own laws despite what the US/CIA might wish. Let's assume then that he will not be extradited from Sweden as Swedish laws prohibit this, even if found guilty.

Now what? You still think he's right in seeking asylum and evading his charges?

As I said earlier, if he has a well-founded (in the legal sense) fear of being persecuted, then, yes, that does, according to international law, take precedence. Abu Qatada.

Right yes. Stopping WHO from arresting him? And what do they want to do with him after he has been arrested?
eh? I said that his claims that these charges were a set up to enable him to be extradited were "clearly bollocks". You said that "only you have decided this." I then pointed out that setting somebody up to face unrelated charges in an unrelated country is not a normal part of the extradition process. That's not hard to follow is it?

the whole point is this isn't a normal extradition case, because it is (supposedly) a frame up. So what is 'normal' is irrelevant

 

[JimW]

What would Jason Bourne do?

 

[TruXta]

As I said earlier, if he has a well-founded (in the legal sense) fear of being persecuted, then, yes, that does, according to international law, take precedence. Abu Qatada.

Shame it's not well-founded then eh.

 

[tommers]

the whole point is this isn't a normal extradition case, because it is (supposedly) a frame up. So what is 'normal' is irrelevant

To be honest mate I feel a bit like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Assange says that this is a set-up so that he can be extradited from Sweden to some horrible USA detention camp or something.

I'm saying that's bollocks because they could just extradite him from the UK.

That's it.

 

[belboid]

To which the retort is, were it not for these charges, he would have had a massive campaign to defend him from extradition which would have delayed, and quite possibly completely stopped any such proceedings. Now, that campaign would be rather smaller, thus making it much easier to carry out the extradition.

 

[belboid]

Shame it's not well-founded then eh.

There is surely no doubt his fear is genuine. Whether it is objectively reasonable may be more open to question, but its objectively plausible at the very least, imo.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Shame it's not well-founded then eh.

You clearly have access to more information than me on this to be able to pronounce this, judge him a coward, etc.

 

[TruXta]

There is surely no doubt his fear is genuine. Whether it is objectively reasonable may be more open to question, but its objectively plausible at the very least, imo.

I don't think there's a whole lot that's genuine about the bloke except for his ambition tbh. Anyway, I'll leave it at that - somehow I suspect we won't agree on much of this any time soon. A good day to you, squire.