Argentina to fly the flag of Las Malvinas at London Olympics

[Casually Red]

on the basis outlined in their UN submission . Feel free to address that .

 

[Spymaster]

on the basis outlined in their UN submission . Feel free to address that .

Stick it up then!

Surely to lend it such support you must be familiar with it.

 

[Casually Red]

your the one who opposes it , if you want to address it off you go and address it . Like i said feel free

 

[Spymaster]

your the one who opposes it , if you want to address it off you go and address it .

Which bit would you like me to deal with first?

Just post it here and I'll happily address it. Come on, don't be shy.

 

[Casually Red]

im sorry , your dreaeriness just got the beter of me . Ive lost the will to live and couldnt be arsed engaging with you any more . Your just too boring

 

[Spymaster]

Sorry old boy, I was just doing my best to accommodate you.

It's really not my fault if you're so poorly informed on the subject that you don't even understand your own argument or know what questions to ask, is it now?

I've been better challenged on this by teenagers!

 

[Pickman's model]

The problem with disputed sovereignty is that it is, er, disputed. Simply because a country lays claim to territory does not mean it has a right to it; not all the countries which claim the spratly islands can have them. I would be interested to know which of the claims on those islands casually red would support. I supposr, though cr has not made this explicit, that he supports an argentine claim to south georgia, where the argentine flag was first raised in 1982.

Similarly, submissions made to the un are not all fair and above board. I wouldn't say that a country's arguments have any validity purely on the basis that they've been in a document presented to the un. Colin powell's presentation to the un security council, for example, leaps to mind. the argrntine argument, as put forward by cr earlier in the thread, seems based on proximity more than anything else, and despite his protestations it seems the argentine claim descends from the imperial spanish and not some bolivarian age one.

 

[Spymaster]

I would be interested to know which of the claims on those islands casually red would support.

I did ask, several times. He doesn't seem to know.

I think it boils down to: "the Falklands are Argentine territory because they say so".

 

[agricola]

"The Argentine Republic has never recognised the illegitimate British occupation of the southern archipelagos, as the presence of the United Kingdom derives from the usurpation in 1833 of a part of the Argentine national territory, which was immediately protested and never consented by Argentina."

The presence of the United Kingdom derives from a settlement founded in 1766 - its claim for soveriegnty over the islands is based on the early claim (sixty years before the Argentine one and which was never rescinded), the continual occupation of the islands since 1833, and the overwhelming consent of the population. The Argentine claim is based on the islands being nearest Argentina, and on at most thirteen years (which is probably only six - 1826 to January 1833) of an occupation that was questionable at the time (the Argentine responsible sought consent from the British consul on both occasions he founded a settlement).

 

[Spymaster]

The presence of the United Kingdom derives from a settlement founded in 1766 - its claim for soveriegnty over the islands is based on the early claim (sixty years before the Argentine one and which was never rescinded), the continual occupation of the islands since 1833, and the overwhelming consent of the population. The Argentine claim is based on the islands being nearest Argentina, and on at most thirteen years (which is probably only six - 1826 to January 1833) of an occupation that was questionable at the time (the Argentine responsible sought consent from the British consul on both occasions he founded a settlement).

He's heard all this before.

You'd think his argument would improve second time around.

 

[Giles]

1] Was attacking the ship outside the exclusion zone 'cricket' ?, should we have better standards than that ?

2] Did we do anything to help the survivors of the sinking ?, as far as I know we did nothing at all ?, it may not have been feasible for our own ships to rescue them I do not know, did we tell the Argentinians/United Nations/Red Cross that we had torpedoed a ship giving the exact co-ordinates and that there was hundreds of survivors in rafts in a storm with the temperatures below freezing, if we did do nothing is that akin to machine gunning the survivors in their rafts ?.

Some Argentinians tried to get Margaret Thatcher extradiated for War Crimes, the families of the victims attempted to take the British to the European Court of Human rights but was told they had filed their claim too late to be heard.

For the record 323 men were killed and 770 rescued, lots of survivers were not rescued for 30 hours going into another night in appalling conditions.
The captain of the Belgrano had told his crew to stand down from their action stations as they were in international waters, the ship was unable to send any SOS messages as it lost all power instantly after being hit by the torpedos, there is an unofficial code of conduct amongst the worlds navies that says you are obliged to rescue stranded seamen - although I wouldn't have thought the Conqueror would have been in a position to do so but i dont know, did we tell the UN or the Red Cross where the ship was located ?, the log of HMS Conqueror was "lost", conviently some would say .

Submarines cannot effectively take on survivors. Since there has been submarine warfare, subs have never attempted to pick up hundreds of survivors, they just can't.

It was the choice of the Argentinian government to invade the islands, and then, knowing the British task force was approaching, to send their naval vessels "in harms way".

I don't see why UK forces should be held to some higher standard in warfare than any other country.

Giles..

 

[Pickman's model]

Submarines cannot effectively take on survivors. Since there has been submarine warfare, subs have never attempted to pick up hundreds of survivors, they just can't.

It was the choice of the Argentinian government to invade the islands, and then, knowing the British task force was approaching, to send their naval vessels "in harms way".

I don't see why UK forces should be held to some higher standard in warfare than any other country.

Giles..

i don't see why british forces should be held to a higher standard; simply holding them to the same standard as anyone else would be a good start.

 

[Spymaster]

i don't see why british forces should be held to a higher standard; simply holding them to the same standard as anyone else would be a good start.

I don't think anyone can have any genuine complaints over the behaviour of the British forces in the Falkland campaign.

Anyway, isn't someone supposed to mention the Chagos Islands around about now?

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think

i thought there should be a break here

anyone can have any genuine complaints over the behaviour of the British forces in the Falkland campaign.

which is true, as genuine concerns were raised in - among other places - the house of commons.

 

[trampie]

I don't see why UK forces should be held to some higher standard in warfare than any other country.

Giles..

People should abide by certain standards, who first invented concentration camps and put women and children in them [South Africa], who pulled every male in a village out from their houses including children and murdered them [Ireland], who having taken a kicking in battle then did terrible things to prisoners including blinding them and burning places of worship when retreating [Wales].
I wont mention the world wars, the firebombings of Dresden and other German cities as it was mainly Anglo Saxons falling out with each other and both being as bad as each other, English, Germans and Americans they all want to rule the world dont they ?

Talking of standards the last one i mention, when one of the largest armies ever formed at the time invaded Wales and took a beating, after they retreated and done terrible things, the Welsh had a debrief after the battle it was suggested that they nip over the border and do the same to the English but they decided that it wasnt right to sink to such low standards and that the only reason a small group of people still had its language and customs when living next to an imperialist superpower, the only superpower in the world at the time was because the Welsh had God on their side, it was the only reason that they were still free when they were outnumbered 100 to 1, they thought that if they did bad things it would displease God, its all about standards, in general terms some groups have got it and some havent.

 

[Spymaster]

i thought there should be a break herewhich is true, as genuine concerns were raised in - among other places - the house of commons.

Regarding what?

 

[MellySingsDoom]

People should abide by certain standards, who first invented concentration camps and put women and children in them [South Africa], who pulled every male in a village out from their houses including children and murdered them [Ireland], who having taken a kicking in battle then did terrible things to prisoners including blinding them and burning places of worship when retreating [Wales].
I wont mention the world wars, the firebombings of Dresden and other German cities as it was mainly Anglo Saxons falling out with each other and both being as bad as each other, English, Germans and Americans they all want to rule the world dont they ?

Talking of standards the last one i mention, when one of the largest armies ever formed at the time invaded Wales and took a beating, after they retreated and done terrible things, the Welsh had a debrief after the battle it was suggested that they nip over the border and do the same to the English but they decided that it wasnt right to sink to such low standards and that the only reason a small group of people still had its language and customs when living next to in imperialist superpower, the only superpower in the world at the time was because the Welsh had God on their side, it was the only reason that they were still free when they were outnumbered 100 to 1, they thought that if they did bad things it would displease God, its all about standards, in general terms some groups have got it and some havent.

Have you asked to do Comedy Night at the Prince Albert, trampie? I'll come down and support you if you do....

 

[Pickman's model]

Regarding what?

the belgrano - tam dalyell as i recall.

 

[Pickman's model]

People should abide by certain standards, who first invented concentration camps and put women and children in them [South Africa], who pulled every male in a village out from their houses including children and murdered them [Ireland], who having taken a kicking in battle then did terrible things to prisoners including blinding them and burning places of worship when retreating [Wales].
I wont mention the world wars, the firebombings of Dresden and other German cities as it was mainly Anglo Saxons falling out with each other and both being as bad as each other, English, Germans and Americans they all want to rule the world dont they ?

Talking of standards the last one i mention, when one of the largest armies ever formed at the time invaded Wales and took a beating, after they retreated and done terrible things, the Welsh had a debrief after the battle it was suggested that they nip over the border and do the same to the English but they decided that it wasnt right to sink to such low standards and that the only reason a small group of people still had its language and customs when living next to an imperialist superpower, the only superpower in the world at the time was because the Welsh had God on their side, it was the only reason that they were still free when they were outnumbered 100 to 1, they thought that if they did bad things it would displease God, its all about standards, in general terms some groups have got it and some havent.

you do know that concentration camps were invented by the spanish in cuba?

 

[Spymaster]

People should abide by certain standards, who first invented concentration camps and put women and children in them [South Africa], who pulled every male in a village out from their houses including children and murdered them [Ireland], who having taken a kicking in battle then did terrible things to prisoners including blinding them and burning places of worship when retreating [Wales].
I wont mention the world wars, the firebombings of Dresden and other German cities as it was mainly Anglo Saxons falling out with each other and both being as bad as each other, English, Germans and Americans they all want to rule the world dont they ............. <snip>

What the fuck has any of this got to do with the Falklands?

 

[trampie]

you do know that concentration camps were invented by the spanish in cuba?

Oh they were copied were they, thats alright then.

 

[Pickman's model]

People should abide by certain standards, who first invented concentration camps and put women and children in them [South Africa], who pulled every male in a village out from their houses including children and murdered them [Ireland], who having taken a kicking in battle then did terrible things to prisoners including blinding them and burning places of worship when retreating [Wales].
I wont mention the world wars, the firebombings of Dresden and other German cities as it was mainly Anglo Saxons falling out with each other and both being as bad as each other, English, Germans and Americans they all want to rule the world dont they ?

Talking of standards the last one i mention, when one of the largest armies ever formed at the time invaded Wales and took a beating, after they retreated and done terrible things, the Welsh had a debrief after the battle it was suggested that they nip over the border and do the same to the English but they decided that it wasnt right to sink to such low standards and that the only reason a small group of people still had its language and customs when living next to an imperialist superpower, the only superpower in the world at the time was because the Welsh had God on their side, it was the only reason that they were still free when they were outnumbered 100 to 1, they thought that if they did bad things it would displease God, its all about standards, in general terms some groups have got it and some havent.

by the way, england was not a fucking 'imperialist superpower' during the middle ages despite what you might like to think. perhaps you should chip down the library and get some history down you. you only embarrass yourself with guff like that and the bit about concentration camps.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh they were copied were they, thats alright then.

you do know what 'invented' means, right?

 

[Spymaster]

the belgrano - tam dalyell as i recall.

Oh. Loads of questions were raised about the Belgrano. As I said before it was used as a stick to beat Thatcher's government with by their opponents. Why wouldn't it be?
Unfortunately for them, nobody has ever found it to be illegal and Argentina has accepted it as legit. Which pretty much closes that chapter.

 

[Pickman's model]

Argentina has accepted it as legit.

link pls

 

[Spymaster]

link pls

Don't have much time but there are loads if you Google it. I'm sure someone else will post some later, but it's pretty uncontroversial tbh, Pickers. It has been the official position of the Argentine government since 1994, iirc, and the position of the Argentine navy pretty much since it happened.

Here's one to be getting on with though:

Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentine Navy in the 1990s, wrote in a letter to La Nación, published in the 2 May 2005 edition,[25] that the Belgrano was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force, that it was holding off for tactical reasons, and that being outside of the exclusion zone was unimportant as it was a warship on tactical mission. This is the official position of the Argentine Navy.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano

 

[MikeMcc]

Oh. Loads of questions were raised about the Belgrano. As I said before it was used as a stick to beat Thatcher's government with by their opponents. Why wouldn't it be?
Unfortunately for them, nobody has ever found it to be illegal and Argentina has accepted it as legit. Which pretty much closes that chapter.

The captain of the Belgrano did, he was interviewed (ITN or Spectator?) and said his intention was to circle round to engage the British fleet. The exclusion zone relates to civilian shipping, anybody who thinks theres some sort of Queensbury rules when it comes to warships needs their heads examining.

 

[dylanredefined]

i don't see why british forces should be held to a higher standard; simply holding them to the same standard as anyone else would be a good start.

I think the falklands war was as clean a war as any has been fought since the 2nd world war.Few civilian deaths and very few if any war crimes.

 

[trampie]

by the way, england was not a fucking 'imperialist superpower' during the middle ages despite what you might like to think. perhaps you should chip down the library and get some history down you. you only embarrass yourself with guff like that and the bit about concentration camps.

The force that attacked Wales came from every region of England as well as from Normandy, Aquitaine, Flanders and Poitou even the Danish navy was hired, the city of London doing most to foot the bill if that is not superpower stuff for the time i dont know what is, it was another Waterloo moment for England though not as bad as when the Welsh army was stuck on Angelsy and the English carpenters built a wooden bridge across, the Welsh let a hundred or so knights on horseback across and then set the bridge on fire, some historians think it was the English armies worst ever defeat, hundred of knights at the bottom of the sea.

The term concentration camp was first used to describe camps used by the British in the Boer war, the Brits used a scorched earth policy of destroying Boer farms and putting civilians into concentration camps.

 

[Spymaster]

"Brits have been cunts in the past" shocker!

What does this have to do with the Falklands?