Are we really going to sit by while they destroy the NHS?

[Pickman's model]

Society was better in the 1950s to 70s you feel? Was that due to the loss of life in the Second World War leading to social cohesion would you say?

How we measure wellness is difficult isn’t it. Life expectancy is one measurement, but a crude proxy really. Income another, altho wealth & health inequality more important once abject poverty defeated.

Health isn’t the absence of disease. It’s determined by the quality of our relationships, starting with our relationship with ourselves. Disease can actually bring wellness, a stroke patient whose lesion irons out the conflict in their character. Or the diabetic patient who acts as a patient- expert teaching fellow patients how to manage their illness and forging health-promoting relationships. We all meet patients like these in our clinical practice.

The NHS is the tip of the iceberg.

There have been forty plus years of attack on things that draw people together. There's been a concerted effort to undermine the institutions of solidarity be they formal eg unions or informal eg bonds of community through the sale of council houses. This isn't a question of was life bette in the fifties or seventies - in some ways it was, obviously in others it wasn't. Student finance, for example, far better in the seventies: but access to higher education worse

But what my post was about wasn't the good auld days if they existed but the way in which the NHS has become increasingly central to society as it has been knocked and knocked and knocked by successive governments. There's less and less binding this country together as a cohesive society and that's part of what leads to the trivial cases you mention coming to hospital. I thought my point echoed and developed your point, it wasn't in any way in opposition

 

[Shechemite]

I'm at work, borderline close to throwing shit through the window and running down the street naked screaming incoherent revolutionary slogans.

G’wan

 

[Edie]

There have been forty plus years of attack on things that draw people together. There's been a concerted effort to undermine the institutions of solidarity be they formal eg unions or informal eg bonds of community through the sale of council houses. This isn't a question of was life bette in the fifties or seventies - in some ways it was, obviously in others it wasn't. Student finance, for example, far better in the seventies: but access to higher education worse

But what my post was about wasn't the good auld days if they existed but the way in which the NHS has become increasingly central to society as it has been knocked and knocked and knocked by successive governments. There's less and less binding this country together as a cohesive society and that's part of what leads to the trivial cases you mention coming to hospital. I thought my point echoed and developed your point, it wasn't in any way in opposition

I didn’t read it as opposition. I was musing.

I’m not sure I swallow the kool aid about societal cohesion tho. Is that just rose-tinted spectacles. That’s what I wanted you to explain. What communities were better 40 years ago, and in what ways, and why.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I didn’t read it as opposition. I was musing.

I’m not sure I swallow the kool aid about societal cohesion tho. Is that just rose-tinted spectacles. That’s what I wanted you to explain. What communities were better 40 years ago, and in what ways, and why.

40 years ago we were into the 80s!

 

[Edie]

40 years ago we were into the 80s!

I’d guess Pickmans meant between the 50s and 70s, but he can correct it

 

[LDC]

40 years ago we were into the 80s!

Yeah I always make the mistake of saying 40 years ago when I mean closer to 70 or 80!

 

[Pickman's model]

I didn’t read it as opposition. I was musing.

I’m not sure I swallow the kool aid about societal cohesion tho. Is that just rose-tinted spectacles. That’s what I wanted you to explain. What communities were better 40 years ago, and in what ways, and why.

I’d guess Pickmans meant between the 50s and 70s, but he can correct it

You introduced loss of community into the discussion so maybe you'd like to say a few words about what you meant

 

[Edie]

You introduced loss of community into the discussion so maybe you'd like to say a few words about what you meant

What did you mean by ‘damndest to destroy community’ then? I’m confused. Tell me your point again?

 

[StoneRoad]

To me, at least, the community we've lost is the one where neighbours and all the generations were looked after by each other, at least for the simpler things. The one where people shared and helped ... and stood up for each other at work and at play.

IDK, maybe I'm looking back with rose-tinted specs on, because I also know that time had a lot wrong with it, in many respects.

But there's a reason why the Beveridge committee wrote their report & Nye Bevan built the NHS ...

 

[Sasaferrato]

There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.

 

[StoneRoad]

There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.

Speaking recently to my SiL - a senior radiographer in NHS England - she reckons that the decades of underfunding the front-line has crippled the service (despite building some "new" hospitals, mostly with fewer beds), even before the excess stresses that covid and especially the un-vaxx'ed, are adding to the present system.
Her cure would be to massively cut the upper levels of non-productive management 'suits' and stop buying branded drugs when generic versions exist. The released funds could then go towards funding enough full-time staff to have enough beds & wards open to deal with demand. Oh, and decentralise as much as possible ...

 

[Steel Icarus]

the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland

 

[Sasaferrato]

I know a number of SNP politicians who have described the party as Marxist, some haven't though, hence 'semi'.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I know a number of SNP politicians who have described the party as Marxist, some haven't though, hence 'semi'.

Which ones?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Speaking recently to my SiL - a senior radiographer in NHS England - she reckons that the decades of underfunding the front-line has crippled the service (despite building some "new" hospitals, mostly with fewer beds), even before the excess stresses that covid and especially the un-vaxx'ed, are adding to the present system.
Her cure would be to massively cut the upper levels of non-productive management 'suits' and stop buying branded drugs when generic versions exist. The released funds could then go towards funding enough full-time staff to have enough beds & wards open to deal with demand. Oh, and decentralise as much as possible ...

Absolutely.

A monolithic procurement system, an axe to the unnecessary management posts, and a state medicine works for common user items would be a start.

The military hospital at Woolwich, 450 beds, all specialities bar geriatrics, had a nursing hierarchy of three, Matron and two deputies. The next level was Ward Sister. Compensate by increasing pay annually, and keep the experience patient facing.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Which ones?

Councillors. I don't move in the circle of MSPs.

One of the Councillors was Frank Anderson, whom I worked with, he was PCS office chair.

Unfortunately:

SNP councillor suspended after sharing "anti-semitic" blog about trade unionist

A complaint had been made about Frank Anderson after he shared the material.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

 

[Steel Icarus]

Councillors. I don't move in the circle of MSPs.

One of the Councillors was Frank Anderson, whom I worked with, he was PCS office chair.

Unfortunately:

SNP councillor suspended after sharing "anti-semitic" blog about trade unionist

A complaint had been made about Frank Anderson after he shared the material.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

So one random councillor who appears in an article with no reference to the thing you claim he said. Riiiiggghhhttt.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So one random councillor who appears in an article with no reference to the thing you claim he said. Riiiiggghhhttt.

I really don't know what you are getting your knickers in a twist about. Ask the SNP rank and file how they view the political ethos of their party. The answer you will get is way left of Labour.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I really don't know what you are getting your knickers in a twist about. Ask the SNP rank and file how they view the political ethos of their party. The answer you will get is way left of Labour.

No knickers twisted at all. Just wondered if you could back it up. Evidently not.
Also you can go quite a way to the left of Labour without hitting anything like Marxist.

 

[8ball]

After Thatcher, major, Blair, brown, Cameron, may and Johnson all doing their damndest to destroy communities and the things that fasten society together it's really no surprise. There's only three institutions that draw people together, the NHS, the army and the monarchy.* And imo that drawing together power is quite weak

*Yeh yeh I know loads of people don't care about the army or the monarchy but those three national institutions are effectively the only ones used by the state to draw people together now

They've found they make a lot more headway by pulling people apart.

 

[Sasaferrato]

No knickers twisted at all. Just wondered if you could back it up. Evidently not.
Also you can go quite a way to the left of Labour without hitting anything like Marxist.

Oh well, from your home in England, you no doubt know best.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Oh well, from your home in England, you no doubt know best.

I'm saying nothing of the sort, I'm just asking for you to substantiate a claim you've made. Just because you're so old your preferred pronouns are was/were doesn't mean you get a free pass to make wild claims you subsequently can't back up.

 

[LDC]

There is a slight fly in the ointment with the views expressed above. Here in the semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland, the NHS (a fully devolved entity) is in just as much a state of utter chaos as in England.

None of the issues I raise as problems are that different in Scotland, even with their wildly different idyllic life in the 'semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland'.

 

[Badgers]

I'm saying nothing of the sort, I'm just asking for you to substantiate a claim you've made. Just because you're so old your preferred pronouns are was/were doesn't mean you get a free pass to make wild claims you subsequently can't back up.

Makes one wonder how he votes

 

[Shechemite]

Oh dear Warning of ‘wild west’ in depression treatment as UK clinics offer ketamine

 

[Sue]

I really don't know what you are getting your knickers in a twist about. Ask the SNP rank and file how they view the political ethos of their party. The answer you will get is way left of Labour.

What do you think? I'm guessing far right, given you used to call it the 'Scottish Nazi Party'..?

 

[Sasaferrato]

What do you think? I'm guessing far right, given you used to call it the 'Scottish Nazi Party'..?

Oh aye, they are known up here as the SNazis, a bit of a misnomer really as they are left not right. The command and control ethos fits both the extreme left and right of course.

 

[Sasaferrato]

None of the issues I raise as problems are that different in Scotland, even with their wildly different idyllic life in the 'semi-Marxist paradise of Scotland'.

So, how do you square that with the views expressed that the Conservatives are deliberately sabotaging the NHS? Are the SNP doing the same?

 

[Sue]

Oh aye, they are known up here as the SNazis, a bit of a misnomer really as they are left not right. The command and control ethos fits both the extreme left and right of course.

Are they really? You're the only person I've ever heard use that.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Are they really? You're the only person I've ever heard use that.

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