Are we getting 'sexualities' confused with mindsets?

[Reno]

it may be 'supposed to' but surely these other flags etc only happen because there are people out there who do not feel included under the rainbow flag?

there are pockets of intolerance within the LGBT+ 'community' (the 'straight acting' / anti 'camp' mindset, racism, bi-phobia and transphobia are the most noticeable, but i've also seen it towards gay men who - in the view of whoever it is - have too much / too little sex, or who do / don't indulge in particular sorts of sexual activity...)

there are people out there who argue that there is no need for the rainbow either, but we're getting close to the "all lives matter" school of thought there...

I get that, but once you have 20 flags out there it becomes meaningless to anybody trying to keep track. When nobody knows what your flag means, it's meaningless. I'm all for the people of color inclusion as an addition to the traditional LGBT+ flag and can wrap my the trans flag, but do we really need a polyamorous, etc flag ? As a gay man I always thought we were more free to define our relationships along non-traditional lines anyway. Once you basically indicate to your parents that you like sucking cock once you come out to them, negotiating a non-monogamous relationship with a partner should be a doddle. So do we really need a flag for every different relationship variation ? Its the LGBT+ bigots who don't understand and aren't represented by the spirit of the rainbow flag and creating new flags is in opposition of its meaning.

 

[Reno]

I am frustrated by the splintering of the LGBT+ community. It robs us of political power and it becomes indecipherable even to many allies. We shouldn't fight for a gazillion different communities, we shouid make sure our community is inclusive of all persecuted sexual and gender minorities and doesn't tolerate bigotry.

 

[Cloo]

It's just a young person thing, we're not meant to understand

This is also a very good point!

I mean, I didn't want to go into this all 'Ugh, stupid unique and special butterfly kids these days' but I am genuinely interested in this sort of phenomenon and developments in the way one sees onesself.

I find really interesting that it appears, from a number of accounts I have read from young people, that there is less stigma attached to the idea of being a virgin (though among my friendship group 25 years ago there it was a total non-issue as well, so it's not a given) and I wonder if this is because, along with greater openness about sexualities comes greater openness to understanding 'not being ready for/wanting sex' and it becomes more acceptable as an identity of sorts. My daughter (12) identifies as queer, not yet sure if she's lesbian or bi, and already has several friends who identify as LGBTQ which I think is great. I do wonder if there is some degree of the old 'fancying your mate' thing (and daughter does fancy a mate) and whereas once kids would have gone 'Oh my God, am I gay? I hope not' they're now going 'Ok, I'm probably queer' - the latter obviously being much preferable to the former and I wonder if some will then actually realise that they're not gay later, they just had a crush on a mate. But no harm done, I guess.

 

[JimW]

Confucius used to bang on about the rectification of names which seems to be an obsession with every phenomenon having its correct term. Perhaps it's a function of having language that we want to reify the things it signifies. Christ knows.

 

[Superdupastupor]

The flag thing is weird as fuck isn't it? like flags generally are a weird and outdated/throw back thing I cant believe humans still practice...but now we've all got to have a flag!

I feel deeply, deeply offended. As a flag-pole proud vexillusexual you have deleted my identity

We're here, we're waving, we're hoisting, rejoicing!


(and half of Belfast. But that's another matter)

 

[Spymaster]

View attachment 220989

What a load of bollocks.

 

[tim]

What's with all the flags that go with them? I also can't help seeing Fray and thinking of steak and kidney pies, which is quite appropriate given it's description: attraction fades after initially tasting one.

I am reulsed by the idea of steak and kidney pies, or even worse steak and kidney puddings, but actually quite when I am served one enjoy it.

 

[Santino]

P.S. It's also massively individualist and undermines class solidarity.

 

[mauvais]

I guess there is a risk you could use it as an excuse for treating people shittily - 'Sorry, I know you want a long term relationship but my sexuality is to lose interest in people after initial attraction', 'Sorry, my sexuality is to get all the attention and have the other person do all the work while not making any of the effort myself'

I think externalising it - using it as a justification to someone - would be very quickly treated with all the derision it deserves. But I think the danger is that people will look at stuff like this and internalise what you've described as something that's not only legitimate but part of who they are, either through choice of identity or because it matches their experience to date.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Showed my 18 Yr old and he said ' nobody past 15 cares about this' Showed my 12 year old and he said 'that's stupid, wait..can I have a flag?'

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I am frustrated by the splintering of the LGBT+ community. It robs us of political power and it becomes indecipherable even to many allies. We shouldn't fight for a gazillion different communities, we shouid make sure our community is inclusive of all persecuted sexual and gender minorities and doesn't tolerate bigotry.

I can see what you mean, but there are those (both on right and left politically) who say we shouldn't have people splintering the wider national / local / class based community by saying they are LGBT etc or saying anything about race and so on

and as i've said previously, there are parts of the LGBT community who don't want to associate with the T and/ or the B bits of it (and for that matter some L's who don't want to associate with the G's and vice versa, and is the divide between the leather types / bears / disco dollies still a thing among gay men?)

Are these flags / identities setting out to be separate from the LGBT+, or just making the point that while they are part of the wider LGBT+ thing, it's not a one size fits all (that in some places can seem to be dominated by the white, cis gay male bit of the LGBT+) - the impression I get is the latter.

People can have more than one identity depending on circumstances. I'm a worker. I'm a transport worker. I'm a member of this trade union. I'm an employee of that organisation. I work in a particular role / department within that organisation. I don't see any of these as a conflict.

I mean, I didn't want to go into this all 'Ugh, stupid unique and special butterfly kids these days' but I am genuinely interested in this sort of phenomenon and developments in the way one sees onesself.

I still can't quite compute the concept of school age kids being out as anything. I left school in the mid 80s and I can't remember anyone being out, and can't imagine anyone having come out without getting duffed up first and expelled as a disruptive influence second...

Yes, was it really simpler / better when kids were given a default future that consisted of heterosexual marriage, setting up house and having kids, and anything else was somewhere on a scale from second best to mental illness to criminal offence?

 

[Cloo]

I mean, I have taken part in the BDSM scene, but I don't think it's a sexuality (and some people have tried to put it in the 'rainbow')

 

[Reno]

I can see what you mean, but there are those (both on right and left politically) who say we shouldn't have people splintering the wider national / local / class based community by saying they are LGBT etc or saying anything about race and so on

and as i've said previously, there are parts of the LGBT community who don't want to associate with the T and/ or the B bits of it (and for that matter some L's who don't want to associate with the G's and vice versa, and is the divide between the leather types / bears / disco dollies still a thing among gay men?)

Are these flags / identities setting out to be separate from the LGBT+, or just making the point that while they are part of the wider LGBT+ thing, it's not a one size fits all (that in some places can seem to be dominated by the white, cis gay male bit of the LGBT+) - the impression I get is the latter.

People can have more than one identity depending on circumstances. I'm a worker. I'm a transport worker. I'm a member of this trade union. I'm an employee of that organisation. I work in a particular role / department within that organisation. I don't see any of these as a conflict.

Do you really need a flag to celebrate each of your identities seperately ? As i said in my previous post, it's those in the LGBT+ community who are not a accepting of others in the community, who aren't acting in the spirit of the rainbow flag. It's very meaning symbolises inclusivity.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I look at the list of terms and flags and I can't help but think there's going to be a test. And also that the test has not been designed so that people can actually pass it.

 

[freakydave]

Serious point though, I think the tickbox approach to relationship forming, seaking, this codifying stuff, essentialism as someone said, can potentially tend too, isn't great. An expression of another facit of an atomised individualist culture. Maybe... But probably mostly harmless and WTFDIK.

That is what I don't like about it. It's this atomisation. It isn't harmless and we all know that it isn't harmless.

 

[Reno]

That is what I don't like about it. It's this atomisation. It isn't harmless and we all know that it isn't harmless.

From your posts it's not clear whether you are against a range of alternatives to the dominant, heteronormative relationship model or whether you object to their branding as different sexual minorities.

 

[BristolEcho]

Someone close to me is "Demi-sexual" I think, or one of the Asexual subsets. the way they explain it is they do enjoy sex, but they are not generally attracted to people off the bat in the way that seemingly (but probably not) lots of people are, but also they experience it in the relationship too. I think they've always felt different in regards to how they feel about sex and how it happens for most people. For example won't really think about it unless someone else instigates it. It's just not there otherwise even though enjoy it.

What I do know is this was comforting for them and made them feel less alone. It explained a little bit that there is not something wrong with them and it seems to much up with what they experience. I think that's okay.

 

[Gimigimi]

I find really interesting that it appears, from a number of accounts I have read from young people, that there is less stigma attached to the idea of being a virgin (though among my friendship group 25 years ago there it was a total non-issue as well, so it's not a given) and I wonder if this is because, along with greater openness about sexualities comes greater openness to understanding 'not being ready for/wanting sex' and it becomes more acceptable as an identity of sorts.

This is a positive way of looking at things. I've never developed these thoughts all that much, but I have always felt a little strange about the fact that the rise in focus on sexual identities and even these sorts of nonsexual relationship-based identities seems to correlate with a trend of young people just not having sex as much as they used to. Maybe these things aren't related, there might be a lot of reasons for this, but it's an odd pair of phenomena to have at the same time.



(These are US numbers, but the same thing is happening in the UK)

I don't know - I have no idea how many young people "should" be having sex, but I think it's a pretty natural part of life for most people and leads to healthier attitudes overall. I mean, look at Japan - lowest rate of sexual activity in the world - and you can kind of tell there's a few issues there. I'm not blaming the decline of sexual activity among young people on an increase in discussion of sexual identity, social media itself might be a bigger culprit. Perhaps young people have a stronger sense that everyone is watching/judging them, so they're more cautious about having sex and feel the need to have a ready made answer in the form of an identity group to explain their feelings? Or maybe they're moving towards having the amount of sex they feel comfortable with, as you mentioned, and that just happens to be less than previously?

 

[freakydave]

From your posts it's not clear whether you are against a range of alternatives to the dominant, heteronormative relationship model or whether you object to their branding as different sexual minorities.

To be honest I don't know how I feel about it either. I just grew up with the idea that what we should aim for is not to care about it and treat everybody as equal, but that seems to have changed.

I think that we are probably programmed to live in a big tree village like the Ewoks and have sex with quite a few people who we know and then sometimes go outside and have sex with strangers, but the labour party never respond to my emails

 

[Reno]

To be honest I don't know how I feel about it either. I just grew up with the idea that what we should aim for is not to care about it and treat everybody as equal, but that seems to have changed.

I think that we are probably programmed to live in a big tree village like the Ewoks and have sex with quite a few people who we know and then sometimes go outside and have sex with strangers, but the labour party never respond to my emails

It has changed to what ? People being treated more or less equal than before ? I'm honestly not sure what you are on about.

I have no desire to fuck Ewoks btw, just to be clear on that.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Rather than not care about sexuality you should not discriminate about sexuality.
Sexuality is a huge part of existence. you can't not care about it.

Part of caring about it is reflecting on it and exploring it.
To reflect and explore we often need terminology and definitions of behaviour.

it is only natural to refine your identification as part of that exploration.

It is also natural for each generation to want to find their own identity that is opposed to the previous generation.
With LGBT becoming more mainstream people may be pushing away from that broader identity.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I have no desire to fuck Ewoks btw, just to be clear on that.

 

[Reno]

Its close to bed time and now I'll have nightmares.

 

[A380]

Rather than not care about sexuality you should not discriminate about sexuality.
Sexuality is a huge part of existence. you can't not care about it.

Part of caring about it is reflecting on it and exploring it.
To reflect and explore we often need terminology and definitions of behaviour.

it is only natural to refine your identification as part of that exploration.

It is also natural for each generation to want to find their own identity that is opposed to the previous generation.
With LGBT becoming more mainstream people may be pushing away from that broader identity.

I don’t care about other people’s sexuality. In 99.999% of my interactions with people sex isn’t going to be an issue so why should it be any of my business what they choose to do or who they choose to do it with?

Have we learned nothing from the way LBGT people have been, and still are In many places, stigmatised by people who think they have a right to know about , and control other people’s sexuality?

 

[freakydave]

It has changed to what ? People being treated more or less equal than before ? I'm honestly not sure what you are on about.

I have no desire to fuck Ewoks btw, just to be clear on that.

Well it's the idea of more equal. Like I now have to learn about other people's struggles, it's not enough just to be cool with people

It's not particularly a 'hill that I want to die on', I just generally dislike people is all

 

[A380]

...

I have no desire to fuck Ewoks btw, just to be clear on that.

How about a massage with a happy Endor?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I just grew up with the idea that what we should aim for is not to care about it and treat everybody as equal

there is a difference between people being equal and expecting everyone to be the same

equality is about putting a ramp entrance at a public building so that wheelchair users can get in. treating everyone the same is about letting everyone use the same set of stairs

I don’t care about other people’s sexuality. In 99.999% of my interactions with people sex isn’t going to be an issue so why should it be any of my business what they choose to do or who they choose to do it with?

Have we learned nothing from the way LBGT people have been, and still are In many places, stigmatised by people who think they have a right to know about , and control other people’s sexuality?

so to avoid being stigmatised / discriminated against, LGBT people should just shut up and stay in the closet?

 

[frogwoman]

People are always going to invent labels for things and if it helps someone feel less alone why not tbh.

 

[Raheem]

How about a massage with a happy Endor?

Can't you make do with a han solo?

 

[WouldBe]

it may be 'supposed to' but surely these other flags etc only happen because there are people out there who do not feel included under the rainbow flag?

Looking at the updated hanky code in the wiki article above we need way more colours on the flag.