Are we getting 'sexualities' confused with mindsets?

[littlebabyjesus]

Spike Milligan was a great advocate of ECT.
Tangents aside, are the conditions which ECT is used for more prevalent in women?

Yes. (I'll resist the tangent. Needs its own thread.)

 

[8ball]

Before anyone else gets too enraged - this isn't a recently produced scale - the terms used as gender signifiers were based on a survey of 100 Stanford University students in the early 1970s, so it's something of a document of gendered associations in a particular culture at a particular time.

It did have some uses for some things which might have seen surprising back then (such as showing reliably that people who did not show behaviours most strongly rewarded for their gender had a tougher time of things in an assortment of ways - which seems obvious when phrased like this tbf).

LBJ might put it as 'gender harms everyone' - they might have put it as 'those not exhibiting rewarded traits lack gender-associated benefits'.

 

[smokedout]

That's the main reason why I wonder about so many kids deciding they're nonbinary etc.
It's a binary that no one ever really fit into properly anyway, that existed for cultural reasons.

If no-one really fits into the gender binary then how it is so ubitiquous?

I see a lot of people at the moment, especially men, dismissing the gender binary as all about stereotypes and thinking it doesn't really apply to them because they don't like football or sometimes cry when they're watching a film when in fact this represents a tiny part of what gender is and the social power it has.

A lot of gender, how we speak, our body language etc is unconsciously performed we learn it so well. Gender is how we dress, and how we present ourselves, and this indicates our social role and status in the gendered hierarchy immediately to others. I suspect one reason men are much more rigid in their physical gender presentation than women is that typically masculine presentation indicates a superior role, and most men don't want to give that up. Gender is even how we choose to make ourselves smell if you use that kind of stuff, although in reality this is chosen for us, and it's interesting that deoderants and products for men often very obviously specify themselves as being FOR MEN in a way women's don't, because men won't buy them if there's any ambiguity.

Gender is the job we do, and how much we get paid for it. Gender is whether someone expresses, or possesses a sense of internalised male privilege due to their gendered socialisation even if they are not consciously aware of it. Gender is whether we are worried about walking the streets late at night or getting in an Uber driven by a man on our own. Gender is how much reproductive work we do (in the Marxist not biological sense) such as care work or emotional labour. I'd even argue gender is linked to sexuality as in the perfectly gendered male, with all the social rewards that come with that, would be pretty much exclusively top and heterosexual. And yes, gender is about tastes, and interests, and coerced personality types, but all of those things are supported and maintained by the deeper elements of gender, and the fact that gender is not just something we consciously choose to perform but something that happens to us, whether we like it or not.

For men in particular to shrug off the gender binary as just being about some stereotypes that they don't think apply to them then is really just a way of abrogating responsibility for the way gender benefits them. And most of the men who do it in reality are near perfectly gendered males in the context of a modern neoliberal and patriarchal society that doesn't really need men swaggering around and starting fist fights every five minutes.

I think it's probably true that some teenagers who are non binary are really just rejecting gender stereotypes based on their physical sex, although it's equally true that many non binary people feel a sense of disassociation with their physical bodies in the way many binary trans people do. But I also see a lot more non binary people really interregating the core of gender and exploring alternatives, including things like presentation which is a big part of gender, as well as social structures which enforce gender, then I do those men who just decide the gender binary doesn't really apply to them, and then carry on being just as gendered as before without any social cost or real reflection.

 

[Athos]

If no-one really fits into the gender binary then how it is so ubitiquous?

I see a lot of people at the moment, especially men, dismissing the gender binary as all about stereotypes and thinking it doesn't really apply to them because they don't like football or sometimes cry when they're watching a film when in fact this represents a tiny part of what gender is and the social power it has.

A lot of gender, how we speak, our body language etc is unconsciously performed we learn it so well. Gender is how we dress, and how we present ourselves, and this indicates our social role and status in the gendered hierarchy immediately to others. I suspect one reason men are much more rigid in their physical gender presentation than women is that typically masculine presentation indicates a superior role, and most men don't want to give that up. Gender is even how we choose to make ourselves smell if you use that kind of stuff, although in reality this is chosen for us, and it's interesting that deoderants and products for men often very obviously specify themselves as being FOR MEN in a way women's don't, because men won't buy them if there's any ambiguity.

Gender is the job we do, and how much we get paid for it. Gender is whether someone expresses, or possesses a sense of internalised male privilege due to their gendered socialisation even if they are not consciously aware of it. Gender is whether we are worried about walking the streets late at night or getting in an Uber driven by a man on our own. Gender is how much reproductive work we do (in the Marxist not biological sense) such as care work or emotional labour. I'd even argue gender is linked to sexuality as in the perfectly gendered male, with all the social rewards that come with that, would be pretty much exclusively top and heterosexual. And yes, gender is about tastes, and interests, and coerced personality types, but all of those things are supported and maintained by the deeper elements of gender, and the fact that gender is not just something we consciously choose to perform but something that happens to us, whether we like it or not.

For men in particular to shrug off the gender binary as just being about some stereotypes that they don't think apply to them then is really just a way of abrogating responsibility for the way gender benefits them. And most of the men who do it in reality are near perfectly gendered males in the context of a modern neoliberal and patriarchal society that doesn't really need men swaggering around and starting fist fights every five minutes.

I think it's probably true that some teenagers who are non binary are really just rejecting gender stereotypes based on their physical sex, although it's equally true that many non binary people feel a sense of disassociation with their physical bodies in the way many binary trans people do. But I also see a lot more non binary people really interregating the core of gender and exploring alternatives, including things like presentation which is a big part of gender, as well as social structures which enforce gender, then I do those men who just decide the gender binary doesn't really apply to them, and then carry on being just as gendered as before without any social cost or real reflection.

Do any men here suggest that gender binary doesn't apply to them? Gender is socially constucted (not individually), so it's hard to see how anyone could realistically think that they are unaffected.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If no-one really fits into the gender binary then how it is so ubitiquous?

Because, in its details, it is about how we ought to be rather than about how we are. There's no contradiction there, I don't think.

 

[8ball]

If no-one really fits into the gender binary then how it is so ubitiquous?

I see a lot of people at the moment, especially men, dismissing the gender binary as all about stereotypes and thinking it doesn't really apply to them because they don't like football or sometimes cry when they're watching a film when in fact this represents a tiny part of what gender is and the social power it has.

None of this (from me, anyway) is anything to do with claiming immunity, or shrugging anything off.

But it is culture. It doesn't exist in the simplest expression of "men are like this, women are like that, so we teach the kids in such a way that they are most comfortable when older". It's far more complex.

I'm not sure what being "immune to the gender binary" even means tbh, practically speaking.

 

[stethoscope]

Do any men here suggest that gender binary doesn't apply to them? Gender is socially constucted (not individually), so it's hard to see how anyone could realistically think that they are unaffected.

Oh god. I gave up on these threads last time partly because of your nickpicking derails, concern trolling, and sense of superiority, Athos. Give it a fucking rest.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

None of this (from me, anyway) is anything to do with claiming immunity, or shrugging anything off.

But it is culture. It doesn't exist in the simplest expression of "men are like this, women are like that, so we teach the kids in such a way that they are most comfortable when older". It's far more complex.

I'm not sure what being "immune to the gender binary" even means tbh, practically speaking.

Same with me. To me the gender binary is something very present that I would neither claim immunity to nor shrug off. It's something that has caused me a fair bit of grief across my life. At its best, gender is something we can play with and have fun with. It forms a part of many of our sexualities after all - its role in sexual attraction is a whole new discussion. At its worst, it is something that can suffocate and oppress.

 

[8ball]

Same with me. To me the gender binary is something very present that I would neither claim immunity to nor shrug off. It's something that has caused me a fair bit of grief across my life. At its best, gender is something we can play with and have fun with. It forms a part of many of our sexualities after all - its role in sexual attraction is a whole new discussion. At its worst, it is something that can suffocate and oppress.

It would be a bit like claiming your perspective is unaffected by the language(s) you speak. We live in this stuff.
One nice thing about being a little older is that the performative pressures fall away a lot (for a male).

 

[smokedout]

One nice thing about being a little older is that the performative pressures fall away a lot (for a male).

But not the privileges. Funny that.

 

[bimble]

It would be a bit like claiming your perspective is unaffected by the language(s) you speak. We live in this stuff.
One nice thing about being a little older is that the performative pressures fall away a lot (for a male).

I feel the same (about getting older), for the work of performing femininity.

 

[smokedout]

I feel the same (about getting older), for the work of performing femininity.

I'm not sure that's the case for a lot of visibly gender non-conforming people. I think the social disapproval which is used to police gender, that can range from mild discrimination to outright hostility and violence, is often more acute for those who visibly transcend gender as they age. I think it certainly is for older trans women, effeminate men, or amab non-binary people. I'd be interested to hear from older butch lesbians or trans men if they felt the social hostility towards them based on their gender non-conformity lessened as they aged.

 

[kittyP]

Depression and anxiety diagnoses are more common for women.

I think it is more that women are more likely to seek treatment for depression and anxiety tbh

 

[bimble]

I'm not sure that's the case for a lot of visibly gender non-conforming people. I think the social disapproval which is used to police gender, that can range from mild discrimination to outright hostility and violence, is often more acute for those who visibly transcend gender as they age. I think it certainly is for older trans women, effeminate men, or amab non-binary people. I'd be interested to hear from older butch lesbians or trans men if they felt the social hostility towards them based on their gender non-conformity lessened as they aged.

Some of this (that its easier for women to deviate from 'femininity' as they get older without being attacked for it) is just going to be that men are more punished for straying outside the strict rules of manliness in their appearance anyway but some might also be to do with the fact that feminine presentation is a lot of work (visible and time consuming and expensive), it's a lot of effort and to do the job perfectly every day will take many hours out of a persons week and cost them a lot of money. 'Masculinity' (just talking presentation here) isn't like that, you can go to work in the morning with a totally make-up free face unshaved armpits and still look totally professional for instance.
Whilst some women do continue or even ramp up the work as they get older (surgery for some constantly dying their hair for most) i think its probably fairly normal that in my little group of female freinds there's a lot of feeling you just basically can't be arsed with much of it anymore. As a young woman it was massively important to be sexy, was even the measure of your worth, and its really less so as you get older, other things just matter more.
But thats the easy stuff, these presentation things are easy to change, you just stop putting on lipstick or worrying if your bum looks good today, what's really hard is the internal things (like conflict aversion, not wanting to be too bossy or forceful, being sweet and kind and 'yielding', those ingrained learnt behaviours, that stuff is harder to shift, work in progress.

 

[stethoscope]

I'd be interested to hear from older butch lesbians or trans men if they felt the social hostility towards them based on their gender non-conformity lessened as they aged.

I have a few lesbian/dyke friends that get shit still even as they've got older.

 

[Athos]

Oh god. I gave up on these threads last time partly because of your nickpicking derails, concern trolling, and sense of superiority, Athos. Give it a fucking rest.

It's not nitpicking; I'm saying it's a complete strawman - nobody here claims that. Pointing that out isn't a claim to superiority. And there no trolling (concern or otherwise).

 

[smokedout]

I have a few lesbian/dyke friends that get shit still even as they've got older.

I think that's why it can rankle a bit when some cis straight men talk about gender. There is significant social cost that comes with being openly gender non-conforming, in all the ways that manifests. If you don't experience that social cost then perhaps that is because you conform perfectly well to your expected gender, or at least well enough that the gender binary remains untroubled.

 

[smokedout]

I do think that gendered expectations change with age though. Older men are not supposed to be swaggering action heros, but beard stroking patriarchs, comfortable in their privilege and issuing wise fatherly judgements even on things they have little direct experience of.

 

[prunus]

The libra stone isn't amethyst but it should be

I was going to argue with this but I decided that on balance that you’re probably correct.

 

[prunus]

I don't want a flag, I want a new Orleans style band to follow me round announcing my sexuality.

This has genuinely made me laugh more than anything else in the past four months. It’s possible I may be losing it. Thank you.

 

[Cloo]

I do think that gendered expectations change with age though. Older men are not supposed to be swaggering action heros, but beard stroking patriarchs, comfortable in their privilege and issuing wise fatherly judgements even on things they have little direct experience of.

It's behind paywall, but saw a shot of an interesting Caitlin Moran article about women finding their anger around about menopause and this whole idea of bitter, miserable old women, but actually it's a good thing for women to find that anger when they don't have to be tolerating little kids' twattishness, or giving as much of shit what people think.

 

[nyxx]

Oh god. I gave up on these threads last time partly because of your nickpicking derails, concern trolling, and sense of superiority, Athos. Give it a fucking rest.

Got him on ignore, it’s great.
These boards in general are much more doable with him and a couple of others’ contributions edited out.

This one made me nauseous tho.

 

[nyxx]

I think it is more that women are more likely to seek treatment for depression and anxiety tbh

I don’t know that it matters how the stats got to be what they are for this particular aspect, but it could be an interesting derail / alternative thread, there’s a lot of gendered stuff in mental health diagnosing. Not to mention race.

 

[Clair De Lune]

This has genuinely made me laugh more than anything else in the past four months. It’s possible I may be losing it. Thank you.

You're welcome

 

[8ball]

I do think that gendered expectations change with age though. Older men are not supposed to be swaggering action heros, but beard stroking patriarchs, comfortable in their privilege and issuing wise fatherly judgements even on things they have little direct experience of.

I've grown this lockdown beard now, so I'm going to enjoy the benefits!

<tries to think of something to issue wise judgment on...>

 

[8ball]

I feel the same (about getting older), for the work of performing femininity.

Yeah, I didn't want to prompt but wondered whether any women felt the same, and to what extent.
I think performing femininity has a whole bunch of things attached that get punished, whereas with men you just perhaps lose a very trivial benefit here or there.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Just wondering. I find youngsters generally seem less macho than my cohort when in my presence, but then I see some of the crap they post online...

i live with 20 somethings and them and their large social group seem a much gentler bunch than my recollections of my peer group. Having said that they smoke more and drink much less than we did

In some ways they seem a bit lost/hopeless/resigned

Having said that of them blacked up for the mini Glastonbury festival they held in the garden so not all the messages are getting through

 

[8ball]

i live with 20 somethings and them and their large social group seem a much gentler bunch than my recollections of my peer group. Having said that they smoke more and drink much less than we did

I've found this with the 20 somethings (often more early 30s) that I work with. Much more open about feelings, much more accepting of different sexualities etc.

 

[Sue]

I've found this with the 20 somethings (often more early 30s) that I work with. Much more open about feelings, much more accepting of different sexualities etc.

I work with a load of 20 somethings too. I'd agree about the accepting of different sexualities thing but I find them very non-accepting of other differences. Maybe it's the type of company (technology start-up) but if you're not a young (preferably white) guy, then it really feels like you don't really count. I've been working in this type of environment for a long time and I think it's definitely getting worse in an unconscious sexism/ageism kind of a way. Dunno.

 

[8ball]

I work with a load of 20 somethings too. I'd agree about the accepting of different sexualities thing but I find them very non-accepting of other differences. Maybe it's the type of company (technology start-up) but if you're not a young (preferably white) guy, then it really feels like you don't really count. I've been working in this type of environment for a long time and I think it's definitely getting worse in an unconscious sexism/ageism kind of a way. Dunno.

That's a shame, especially if it seems like it is getting worse. I think some previous female techies that blazed a trail in the past have (and are continuing now in more senior roles) to make things easier for our newer ones. Plus we have the Harridans (our self-titled feminist coven) who have been rattling some cages. It's 20 years since we were a start-up and things were very similar here then.