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Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

Who is consulting, and why do they have more power and legitimacy than those they are consulting? This is the madness of so-called participatory approaches to development, which allow voices to be heard, to give development back to the people... but which is lead by a team of experts in participation from Europe. The transformation of a political struggle into a series of expert technical recommendations.

Still, not a bad way to earn a living, get to see the world etc. :mad:
It becomes an industry in its own right, feeding capitalism and ultimately not doing anything to properly address inequality/oppression.
 
  • It is often middle-(or even higher)-class-males doing the tainting.
  • These sorts of males dominate socialist groups (and sometimes organisations like anti-cuts groups they seek to leech from).
  • Instead of 'let's make feminism more working-class and solid by mobilising working-class women' they operate a 'let's actively disparage (or meaninglessly hamper) feminism so that (middle-class) women will be put off and join our organisation instead'.
Their voices more readily heard.
 
It becomes an industry in its own right, feeding capitalism and ultimately not doing anything to properly address inequality/oppression.
Agreed - I've seen this so often. "We can't afford to give you the support you need, let alone make any changes, but at least we've pretended to listen to you, why aren't you grateful?" :facepalm:
 
The one things socialist middle-class males can not do is examine why their own organisations are so middle class.

Attacking feminism wherever and whenever possible

'Women in history and what men have done to them' by Dale Spender examines a little how the Suffrage movement is treated by male historians.

Centrist male historians trumpet achievements of male national or economic figures (Churchills, Brunels, look admiringly at national enemies like Napoleon) and don't dwell on their class background. But these same historians make a special point of mentioning the class background of the Pankhursts and others, mocking them for their pretension to speak for all women.
Implicitly, until the war, "Asquith spoke for 'the nation' the Suffrage movement just for a slither of rich women".

Revisionist history of Irish nationalism, instead of examining women's contribution to it, and examining how it was weakened by its sexism, concentrates on painting it as an anti-Protestant self-indulgent quasi-racist movement.
 
Agreed - I've seen this so often. "We can't afford to give you the support you need, let alone make any changes, but at least we've pretended to listen to you, why aren't you grateful?" :facepalm:
And also "look how much we've invested in this exercise, how can you say that we don't take <whatever> seriously. We haven't invested this much in the <dominant sector> you know, and they also deserve investment!"
 
The one things socialist middle-class males can not do is examine why their own organisations are so middle class.

Attacking feminism wherever and whenever possible

'Women in history and what men have done to them' by Dale Spender examines a little how the Suffrage movement is treated by male historians.

Centrist male historians trumpet achievements of male national or economic figures (Churchills, Brunels, look admiringly at national enemies like Napoleon) and don't dwell on their class background. But these same historians make a special point of mentioning the class background of the Pankhursts and others, mocking them for their pretension to speak for all women.
Implicitly, until the war, "Asquith spoke for 'the nation' the Suffrage movement just for a slither of rich women".

Revisionist history of Irish nationalism, instead of examining women's contribution to it, and examining how it was weakened by its sexism, concentrates on painting it as an anti-Protestant self-indulgent quasi-racist movement.
Which illustrates not just the need to understand the history of feminism, but also feminist history. I'll order that book, thanks Sihhi.
 
Which illustrates not just the need to understand the history of feminism, but also feminist history. I'll order that book, thanks Sihhi.

I don't want to be blamed for an error. Dale Spender is now less radical than in the past in 1982 when it was written, most of the book is about women in literature and human thought in general, Aphra Benn, Mary Shelley etc - the bit on the Suffrage movement is very short, that was my thoughts on it. There's nothing on Irish history following Roy Foster.
But it made me think and go back to Mary Beard (always seen unfairly as the lesser of Charles&Mary Beard) and her work 'Woman as a Force in History' http://www.marxists.org/archive/beard/woman-force/index.htm.

I also don't like how Simone de Beauvoir is seen as a lesser to Jean-Paul Sartre. If anything she is superior, much easier to understand, more concrete as a guide for action, less of a poser and much less of a 'crypto-Stalinist' than he is. Nothing on de Beauvoir in Dale Spender's book.

Simone de Beauvoir herself writes about how the medieval past contained women struggling for collective womens' rights and advancement like Christine of Pizan, and how it is wrong to see women monarchs like Elizabeth I as 'proto-feminist'.
 
Back to feminism, and this is a more controversial thing to pose but what damage has been done by middle-class feminists to the feminism movement?

For the past 20 years probably there have been meaningless (or outright vile) 'feminist' efforts by middle-class feminists. Feminist Julie Burchill's Diana published in 1998, feminist Bea Campbell's Diana Princess of Wales the blistering analysis "The Diana dialectic had arrived: she was both empowered and endangered." and stuff along the lines of: "By telling her story Diana joined the 'constituency of the rejected' - the survivors of harm and horror, from the holocaust, from the world wars and pogroms, from Vietnam and the civil wars of South America and South Africa, from torture and child abuse."

Natasha Walter's The New Feminism in 1997 welcomed a survey of teenage girls naming Elizabeth II and
Thatcher as their heroines. She says Thatcher "normalised female success" and hence is "the great unsung heroine of British feminism" who "allowed British women to celebrate their ability not just to be nurturing or caring or life-affirming but also to be deeply unpleasant, to be cruel, to be death-dealing, to be egotistic". A lot of feminism was on this basis 'we need all-women listings and quotas to drive through an increase to 50-50 in the ratio at the management level down to the bottom level. From the Fawcett Society to dozens of charities working on women's issues (probably the heart of feminism more than any political organisation) - that was the broad thrust.

By 2006 feminist Prof Alison Wolf attacked this sort of 'obsession' with women securing equality with men in all fields of social life, on (misplaced) different feminist grounds:

"For Walter, it is so obvious that equality should be measured in terms of whether men and women are equally represented at all levels of every occupation that she sees no need to spell it out. One could interpret today’s feminist assumptions as reflecting the appetite of global capitalism for all talent, female and male, at the expense of the family. Certainly our current economic arrangements offer precious little support to family formation. On the contrary, they erect major barriers in its way. We all know by now that in most developed countries, birth rates are well below replacement level. Less recognised is the massive change in incentives to have children. In the past, adults had no tax-financed welfare state to depend on. Their families were their social insurance policies: children paid. Today, they expect the state to take care of their financial and health needs when ill or retired, regardless of whether they have six children or none.

The benefits we get are completely unrelated to whether or not we contribute a future productive member to the economy. [There is] the virtual disappearance of home-based, educated women (at least below the age of 60) has had an effect. A path once followed by able women across the developed world led to university, teaching and then motherhood, homemaking and voluntary work. Such women are now too busy. The average amount of time that today’s British citizen, male or female, devotes to volunteer activities is four minutes a day. The old unpaid female labour force is now otherwise engaged. Ask the Girl Guides if you doubt this. Scouting and guiding are themselves redolent of that vanished past. Yet Robert Baden-Powell understood exactly what excites and interests children, and the movement has them queuing, often vainly, at the door. What it lacks are adult leaders.

There is a chasm between the moral purpose voiced by female pioneers and the iconic female advertising slogan of today—”Because I’m worth it.” We could, I suppose, write off the beliefs of the former group as the opium of the educated female classes, developed to reconcile them to unequal lives. But then we should see our own obsession with female occupational success as an ideology too. As late as the 1940s and 1950s, education white papers were still imbued with the language of morality and idealism."

The 2 most recent feminist books are Guardian journalist feminist Ellie Levenson's The Noughtie Girl's Guide to Feminism and Times journalist Caitlin Moran's How to be a woman.
Ellie Levenson talks about a new generation of "femininisn't"s, people who no longer really need feminism as a political force and so it is acceptable to count them as feminists, even though they explicitly reject calling themselves or being called feminists. Her non-ironic approach is summed up by her statement "Sometimes I walk past a building site and am annoyed if there are no wolf whistles".
Caitlin Moran's How to be a woman which I started recently is slightly more intelligent, she is correctly angry that people are still wolf-whistled, but it is clearly from a very specific middle-class female journalist perspective. It doesn't mention the structural failure of the capitalist economy to allow equality, it suggests the first step in overcoming sexism in Muslim majority countries is removing the veil, it has a moment where it says casual anti-foreigner statements are much less acceptable than casual sexist comments, it is in favour of burlesque nudity but not strip club nudity, it is in favour of body modification of any sort, including trimming of underarm hair except the trimming of pubic hair is bad, and basically encourages an individualistic go-get-em approach coupled with certain lifestyle approaches. It also has a disturbing tendency to want to make things need to be 'hot' - although this might be humour.



So where the conception of feminism when presented in a positive light has been like this for the past 20 years; I feel it's unsurprising that the media's negative emphasis on it will turn away many.

I don't have faith in Uk Femenista, the only sane one out of the 3in the Observer article, because who does it invite into its "The Feminist Lobby of Parliament takes place on Wednesday 24 October"?

It tells us

The order of the day is as follows:
Rally: 11:00-12:30, Church House, 27 Great Smith Street, Westminster, London, SW1P 3AZ. Featuring talks by Yvette Cooper MP, Caroline Lucas MP and Amber Rudd MP, as well as a performance by the Olympic Suffragettes.
Photo-call: 13:00-13:30, Parliament Square, City of Westminster, London. SW1P. Present at the photo-call will be Helen Pankhurst, the ‘Olympic Suffragettes’, supporting MPs and lobby participants.
1. Yvette Cooper's New Labour began a programme of cuts to ESOL well before official austerity, dismantles childcare provision in workplaces to replace with an inadequate Sure Start system, ends final salary pensions crucial for women, criminalises the Paulsgrove women, forces through parenting classes, fails to extend reproductive health into the 6 counties of northern Ireland, puts more women on No Access to Public Funds visas than ever before etc etc.
2. Caroline Lucas, despite the airy talk, from a Green Party able to endorse housing association control of housing in Sussex, slowly getting sucked into the system, and from a Green Party international, whose German wing seems on a mission to out-chauvinist its rightwing opponents by demanding all Muslim circumcisions of boys be made illegal. (Let's forget its cheerleading for NATO in Libya, or NATO over Yugoslavia for that matter - but that's the only path it can head towards as it grows on current trends).
3. Amber Rudd, a new 'Cameroonian' 'compassionate conservative' Tory MP, part of the most destructive assault on public spending, designed by their plans to last for another 8 years.
4. 'Olympic Suffragettes' sounds like an attempt to make the entirety of the suffragette experience national and British national at that - excluding the Inghinidhe na Eireann and Cumann na mBan.
5. Helen Pankhurst seems to be the major guest speaker simply because she is Emmeline Pankhurst's great-granddaughter and a successful professional academic.

If this is what feminism means - no wonder even those who hate the idea of going back to the 1960s - don't really see themselves as feminists.
 
So is the Dale Spender book worth reading?

I wouldn't buy it unless it was very cheap because I can't afford it but it's worth reading.

But it is far ahead of modern British feminism in the shape of Caitlin Moran:


"Personally, I feel the time has come for women to introduce their own Zero Tolerance policy on the Broken Window issues in our lives – I want a Zero Tolerance policy on ‘All The Patriarchal Bullshit’. And the great thing about a Zero Tolerance policy on Patriarchal Broken Windows Bullshit is this: in the 21st century, we don’t need to march against size zero models, risible pornography, lap-dancing clubs and Botox. We don’t need to riot, or go on hunger strike. There’s no need to throw ourselves under a horse, or even a donkey. We just need to look it in the eye, squarely, for a minute, and then start laughing at it. We look hot when we laugh. People fancy us when they observe us giving out relaxed, earthy chuckles. Perhaps they don’t fancy us quite as much when we go on to bang on the tables with our fists, gurgling, ‘HARGH! HARGH! Yes, that IS what it’s like! SCREW YOU, the patriarchy!’ before choking on a mouthful of crisps, but still.

I don’t know if we can talk about ‘waves’ of feminism any more – by my reckoning, the next wave would be the fifth, and I suspect it’s around the fifth wave that you stop referring to individual waves, and start to refer, simply, to an incoming tide. But if there is to be a fifth wave of feminism, I would hope that the main thing that distinguishes it from all that came before is that women counter the awkwardness, disconnect and bullshit of being a modern woman not by shouting at it, internalising it or squabbling about it – but by simply pointing at it, and going ‘HA!’, instead."
"Personally, I don’t think the word ‘feminist’ on its own is enough. I want to go all the way. I want to bring it back in conjunction with the word ‘strident’. It looks hotter like that. It’s been so wrong for so long that it’s back to being right again. They have used it to abuse us! Let’s use it right back at them! I want to reclaim the phrase ‘strident feminist’ in the same way the black community has reclaimed the word ‘nigger’. ‘Go, my strident feminist! You work that male/female dialectic dichotomy,’ I will shout at my friends, in bars, whilst everyone nods at how edgy and real we are – the word thrilling us as much as champagne, handbrake turns and Helter Skelter. The fact that it’s currently underused and reviled makes it all the hotter – like deciding to be the person who single-handedly revives the popular use of the top hat. Once people see how hot you look in it, they’re all going to want to get one."
 
"I want to reclaim the phrase ‘strident feminist’ in the same way the black community has reclaimed the word ‘nigger’."

Oh, for fukc's sake.
 
But it is far ahead of modern British feminism in the shape of Caitlin Moran:
She's putting feminism forward as something that is useful in everyday life, and she's happy talking about class and patriarchy. I like it.
 
She's putting feminism forward as something that is useful in everyday life, and she's happy talking about class and patriarchy. I like it.

I haven't read the book, but from that passage, I don't really see that she's talking about class in any meaningful way there. It sounds empty, vacuous, and really quite weird. I can't suss her tone about all this 'hot' thing. I really can't work out what she's going for there.
 
I haven't read the book, but from that passage, I don't really see that she's talking about class in any meaningful way there. It sounds empty, vacuous, and really quite weird. I can't suss her tone about all this 'hot' thing. I really can't work out what she's going for there.
Me neither. The quoted passage doesn't tempt me to reading the book.
 
She's putting feminism forward as something that is useful in everyday life, and she's happy talking about class and patriarchy. I like it.

She's addressing it from a singular perspective, though. As sihhi said, the perspective of a middle-class female journalist, when feminisms aren't just about what Caitlin Moran wants, they're about (and should be about) all women, their issues and their needs.
 
All i know is my ex woukd throw things upon hearing the name Caitlan Moran, though she also threw things when playing Zelda, but I dont think it was she thought link was a superficial middle class twat for middlebrow wankers.
 
She seems a bit obsessed about being fancied.

It's something that came through in that netmums thing too. There was quite a bit of emphasis put on women finding it acceptable to vajazzle, get a boob job, and all the rest of it, and it seems like it's just an expression of being caught hook, line and sinker by the full acceptance of consumerism and individualism. We're the products. And we've got to package and market ourselves to be as desirable as possible (how we do that, of course, will depend on who we want to appear desirable to).

It's one thing to say, "I shouldn't feel ashamed about wanting to get my highlights done" but it's quite another to completely fail to make the link to the ways you're being positioned as the consumer of goods and a set of goods to be marketed yourself.
 
while i'm no fan of moran, i think (hope?) that particular passage is a joke of some sort. certainly some women who's opinion i trust have found her book interesting.
 
I like Nina Power, she writes with a nice withering contempt, also has her feminists writings grounded in proper theory.
 
It's something that came through in that netmums thing too. There was quite a bit of emphasis put on women finding it acceptable to vajazzle, get a boob job, and all the rest of it, and it seems like it's just an expression of being caught hook, line and sinker by the full acceptance of consumerism and individualism. We're the products. And we've got to package and market ourselves to be as desirable as possible (how we do that, of course, will depend on who we want to appear desirable to).

It's one thing to say, "I shouldn't feel ashamed about wanting to get my highlights done" but it's quite another to completely fail to make the link to the ways you're being positioned as the consumer of goods and a set of goods to be marketed yourself.
That Molly Crabapple was having a right old tantrum about a piece that Kay <forgotten surname> had written, last week. I pointed out to MC that she'd missed the overarching point about the capitalisation and commodification of the sex industry in her rush to get angry about Kay not being entirely enamoured of porn.
 
while i'm no fan of moran, i think (hope?) that particular passage is a joke of some sort. certainly some women who's opinion i trust have found her book interesting.
You think the passage has been quoted out of context?

Edit, just seen your above post :D
 
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