Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

[Teepee]

I went out with an asian woman who was an ardent feminist. She made me think about my opinions and what I was saying more than any girl before or since and I still miss her for that. As a middle-class white man, I was frankly oblivious to the huge amount of prejudice that women like her experience daily. I paid lip-service to it of course, but she helped me *get* it. That said, I don't doubt that I can ever be anything but mostly oblivious to it even now, as a pure accident of birth. Feminism should be taught to guys in school imo, as I'm ashamed to admit that before I learned about it, my preconceptions of feminists were of the Valerie Solanas testicle-slasher sort, not of the intelligent, informed, not-going-to-take-shit-from-the-system sort. Blokes - go out with a feminist, you won't regret it.

 

[dooley]

yeah - i always paid lip-service to feminism having grown up involved in the uk punk and hc circles, but as a dude you really have no fucking idea what it's like. whether i transition or not the insight it's given me (albeit slight) is something i'll always be grateful for.

 

[_angel_]

*stifles the urge to head for the decontamination shower after agreeing with revol68* I don't hate children, what I hate is being expected to know where the nearest softplay area is just because I've got ovaries. What are they - sat nav combined with the yellow pages?

Surely your fuzzy feminine brain can't be expected to navigate??
(This is actually true in my case)

 

[Greebo]

Surely your fuzzy feminine brain can't be expected to navigate??
(This is actually true in my case)

I can navigate alright (including orienteering in the dark), I've just got next to no sense of direction. This makes finding north at the start of certain exercises interesting, to say the least. Unless I remember to take a compass.

 

[8ball]

I can navigate alright (including orienteering in the dark), I've just got next to no sense of direction. This makes finding north at the start of certain exercises interesting, to say the least.

So you do have a sense of direction, just no internal compass (as is the way with humans).

 

[seeformiles]

I went out with an asian woman who was an ardent feminist. She made me think about my opinions and what I was saying more than any girl before or since and I still miss her for that. As a middle-class white man, I was frankly oblivious to the huge amount of prejudice that women like her experience daily. I paid lip-service to it of course, but she helped me *get* it. That said, I don't doubt that I can ever be anything but mostly oblivious to it even now, as a pure accident of birth. Feminism should be taught to guys in school imo, as I'm ashamed to admit that before I learned about it, my preconceptions of feminists were of the Valerie Solanas testicle-slasher sort, not of the intelligent, informed, not-going-to-take-shit-from-the-system sort. Blokes - go out with a feminist, you won't regret it.

When I was 18 I went out with a stidently feminist lass of 28 who certainly changed my viewpoint at the time. At the same time (mid-80s) I must say that I did also come across a few women who fell very much into the separatist, green boiler suit, short, back and sides stereotype. I was backing this lass - a great singer - on guitar and her friends (as described earlier) really hated me being around when we rehearsed. Lots of nonsense about "invading a safe women's space" and the like plus overtly anti-male comments (esp. when I sang a very sad French tune about Louis 16th and his mass hanging of political opponents in his orchard they said "Men hanging from the trees - sounds like paradise!") - but they were very much in a minority and a bit crackers really.

 

[Treacle Toes]

How to be better: on intersectionality, privilege and silencing

By stavvers
It’s been brewing for a while. The backlash is on, and this time it’s coming from inside what is nominally “our” camp. The problem? Some people, it seems, just don’t get intersectionality. They hate it when they’re called out on privilege, and they try their best to shut down or derail any of the discussions. It’s hard to work out where it started, but I think it’s something to do with the festival of rightful criticism thrown at Mehdi Hasan (thinks he has a right to peek into our uteruses) and Caitlin Moran (more on her later). Those with the double whammy of privilege and platform have all closed ranks, and entered onto the offensive.

First of all, we have Vagenda Magazine, a feminism-lite blog with a platform in the New Statesman. Vagenda today published a defence of Caitlin Moran. It wasn’t exactly a very good defence, as they completely neglected to explain why Moran was being criticised, which includes but is not limited to that awful, awful book, casual transphobia, comparing gay men to sea monkeys, liberal use of words like “retard”, and, the latest offence, saying she “literally couldn’t give a shit” about representation of women of colour in the media. All of these actively contribute to the oppression of people. Some of these people will, inevitably, be women.
But no. Vagenda Magazine think it’s unfair to criticise Moran for this, because taking an intersectional approach to feminism is too hard. It’s too academic, apparently, and one could never go into a school and explain, Vagenda complains. Yes, they actually said that:

Going into certain state comps and discussing the nuances of intersectionality isn’t going to have much dice if some of the teenage girls in the audience are pregnant, or hungry, or at risk of abuse (what are they going to do? Protect or feed themselves with theory? Women cannot dine on Greer alone.)​

​

So much wrong with this sentence it’s hard to work out where to start. They’re repeating a tired old criticism which has always been levelled at feminism–that people won’t understand it and that it’s too academic. We all know that argument is bollocks. Vagenda have also managed to imply that young women at a state comprehensive are somehow too stupid to understand intersectional feminism, which is again patently bollocks.

The thing is, intersectionality is fairly intuitive when one experiences intersectional oppression. Things suck harder. I only learned the word for the fact that things suck harder when you’re not just a woman, but also black, or gay, or trans, or disabled, and so forth fairly recently. And it delighted me. I was glad there was a name for this phenomenon I’d noticed. I also only learned the word privilege fairly recently, and the word “cis”, and do you know what? Again, I was glad, because there was a word for these little things I felt that actually gave me a leg up in life.

It’s not difficult at all. In fact, one can think about a four-way junction (or, as the Americans call it, an intersection). One road is not being male. Another road is not being white. Another road is not being able-bodied. The last road is not being cis. Now, if you stand in the middle of any one of these roads, you’re going to be dodging traffic. But if you stand right in the middle of the junction, you have cars coming at you from four ways, and you’re going to have to do a fuckload more dodging than you would have if you were just in one road.

More here:

http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2012/...on-intersectionality-privilege-and-silencing/

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

It's not the only source suggesting that younger women are increasingly more likely to dissociate themselves with feminism

I find it utterly depressing that my fellow undergraduate students are so readily dismissive of feminism. Not just depressing but disappointed, worried, alarmed and cross that young women say they would rather 'laugh it off' when women are objectified and patronised because its more socially acceptable to be passive than it is to object to sexism.
It's not fashionable, there is still an impression that to be a feminist is to be a cantankerous frumpy woman who hates men. I also wonder if other political movements seem more appealing as they don't present a gender divide (though I am not saying there should be a gender divide, just that there is the assumption of one) and focus on unity and shared purpose. I also believe that womens' rights have been lumped in with other political views so that feminism idoes not speak to young people today in the same way that other civil rights movements do.

Anyway, that's probably not a useful contribution as I don't have time to elaborate so i apologise but I have noticed since starting uni that both makes and females are dismissive and derisive of feminism and I am taking it either as blind ignorance of history and politics or a great cause for concern. Or both.

 

[toggle]

Nods. only met one of the younger lasses who described herslef as a feminist. had opinions coming out of her ears (cause most of them wouldn't know an original opinion if it bit their arse), massively passionate about the history of suffragism and apologised wheneve she disagreed with a bloke or even an older woman.

 

[cesare]

One of the problems with the history of feminism, is that it's tainted as a middle/ruling class female pursuit. I have found that this "taint" can form the basis for dismissiveness of the movement.

 

[quimcunx]

F*ck yes.... Women I work with, hugely impressive, experienced, clever and no nonsense, can face down the board of an international company....is emotionally bullied by her husband. It's almost like she's compensating for being 'unfeminine'

Plenty of men like that.

 

[revol68]

Intersectionality is bullshit and I say that not as a way of dismissing experiences of sexism, racism, homophobia etc but rather because it treats these things as discreet things that kind of simply add on to each other. It also completely misunderstanfs class as another -ism, just another form of oppression and privilege rather than the structuring substance of society, through which sexism, racism and such are always already mediated through.

The fact that critiques of Intersectionality are often dismissed as little more than the expression of privilege makes it especially problematic. In short intersectionality multiplies identity politics rather than really cutting across them and dissolving them.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Plenty of men like that.

That's ambiguous; either way it's probably true though.

 

[cesare]

Intersectionality is bullshit and I say that not as a way of dismissing experiences of sexism, racism, homophobia etc but rather because it treats these things as discreet things that kind of simply add on to each other. It also completely misunderstanfs class as another -ism, just another form of oppression and privilege rather than the structuring substance of society, through which sexism, racism and such are always already mediated through.

The fact that critiques of Intersectionality are often dismissed as little more than the expression of privilege makes it especially problematic. In short intersectionality multiplies identity politics rather than really cutting across them and dissolving them.

I'd describe our society as patriarchal capitalism, and that it's structured accordingly i.e. according to class and gender.

 

[revol68]

I'd describe our society as patriarchal capitalism, and that it's structured accordingly i.e. according to class and gender.

I think patriarchy misses the fluid nature of gender and sex, rule of men or the father doesnt describe the last century very well, capital on one hand removes women from being the property of individual men and makes them property in general. Capitalism has done more than any other system to undermine patriarchy yet on the otherhand to degrade women, though now as simply free economic actors, abstractly equal bodies on the market.

 

[cesare]

I think patriarchy misses the fluid nature of gender and sex, rule of men or the father doesnt describe the last century very well, capital on one hand removes women from being the property of individual men and makes them property in general. Capitalism has done more than any other system to undermine patriarchy yet on the otherhand to degrade women, though now as simply free economic actors, abstractly equal bodies on the market.

I don't think capitalism as a system undermines patriarchy. Its success is underpinned by competition, in whatever form. Encouraging dominance (which brings with it, conversely, oppression). I don't think women are free abstractly equal bodies on the market, yet.

 

[nino_savatte]

Netmums who ran this survey (and chose this god-awful fucking font - they should be shot for that alone) is largely populated by women who like sparkly things and have tickers saying that it's 3 years 2 weeks and 4 days since they got married/had a baby/last had a shag.

I think feminism makes a lot of women feel massively uncomfortable because it challenges everything that their world is built around. The fact that the system you favour is absolutely undermining you is a pretty difficult concept.

Exactly, hence the neologism (if that's what it is) "FeMEnism".

 

[sihhi]

I don't think capitalism as a system undermines patriarchy. Its success is underpinned by competition, in whatever form. Encouraging dominance (which brings with it, conversely, oppression). I don't think women are free abstractly equal bodies on the market, yet.

• Pound-for-pound like-for-like employers prefer a young male who will not become pregnant to a young female.
• From the employer point of view, a woman is deficient - always will be (becoming ill for around a year sometimes longer when the production of a child is required). Once a child emerges the responsibility is still placed upon women.
• As long as childcare remains in the private family sphere- and is not communalised- this is capitalism's way.

 

[cesare]

• Pound-for-pound like-for-like employers prefer a young male who will not become pregnant to a young female.
• From the employer point of view, a woman is deficient - always will be (becoming ill for around a year sometimes longer when the production of a child is required). Once a child emerges the responsibility is still placed upon women.
• As long as childcare remains in the private family sphere- and is not communalised- this is capitalism's way.

(absent rather than ill, though)

 

[frogwoman]

"production of a child" ugh.

 

[purves grundy]

Over here in the 'developing' world, it's gender experts with their gender analyses who are busy trying to take over from feminists.

 

[cesare]

Over here in the 'developing' world, it's gender experts with their gender analyses who are busy trying to take over from feminists.

How does that work, then?

 

[purves grundy]

How does that work, then?

They analyse - at a hefty daily rate and using tools and algorithms they've been trained in - a specific sector or a problem, see how women are excluded or marginalised or given less than their worth, then make recommendations. Women or groups with radical leanings are encouraged to join workshops and make stakeholder contributions. They might be given funding to monitor or evaluate successes, and ever so deliberately the sting is drawn from feminist networks. It's quite amazing!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I find it utterly depressing that my fellow undergraduate students are so readily dismissive of feminism. Not just depressing but disappointed, worried, alarmed and cross that young women say they would rather 'laugh it off' when women are objectified and patronised because its more socially acceptable to be passive than it is to object to sexism.
It's not fashionable, there is still an impression that to be a feminist is to be a cantankerous frumpy woman who hates men. I also wonder if other political movements seem more appealing as they don't present a gender divide (though I am not saying there should be a gender divide, just that there is the assumption of one) and focus on unity and shared purpose. I also believe that womens' rights have been lumped in with other political views so that feminism idoes not speak to young people today in the same way that other civil rights movements do.

Anyway, that's probably not a useful contribution as I don't have time to elaborate so i apologise but I have noticed since starting uni that both makes and females are dismissive and derisive of feminism and I am taking it either as blind ignorance of history and politics or a great cause for concern. Or both.

Unfortunately, George Santayana's dictum has become so commonplace that people no longer take it seriously, which is a big mistake, because it's as true now as it was when he first said it 70+ years ago that "those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Willful ignorance of and contempt for women's rights is allowing employers etc to not-so-surreptitiously turn back the clock.

 

[cesare]

They analyse - at a hefty daily rate and using tools and algorithms they've been trained in - a specific sector or a problem, see how women are excluded or marginalised or given less than their worth, then make recommendations. Women or groups with radical leanings are encouraged to join workshops and make stakeholder contributions. They might be given funding to monitor or evaluate successes, and ever so deliberately the sting is drawn from feminist networks. It's quite amazing!!

The sop of being consulted

 

[Greebo]

The sop of being consulted

Oh yes, I know it only too well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

One of the problems with the history of feminism, is that it's tainted as a middle/ruling class female pursuit. I have found that this "taint" can form the basis for dismissiveness of the movement.

And the whole "feminism is a middle class issue" debate has been addressed, starting in the early '70s and continuing even now. The addressing of the issues of feminist identities that extended beyond "middle class white woman" was part and parcel of feminism in the '70s and '80s.

 

[cesare]

And the whole "feminism is a middle class issue" debate has been addressed, starting in the early '70s and continuing even now. The addressing of the issues of feminist identities that extended beyond "middle class white woman" was part and parcel of feminism in the '70s and '80s.

I know. But I often hear/see feminism being disparaged as a middle class issue, and usually in the context of equating feminism to identity politics. It's lazy analysis at the end of the day, but one needs to have a handle on the history of the movement in order to counter it.

 

[purves grundy]

The sop of being consulted

Who is consulting, and why do they have more power and legitimacy than those they are consulting? This is the madness of so-called participatory approaches to development, which allow voices to be heard, to give development back to the people... but which is lead by a team of experts in participation from Europe. The transformation of a political struggle into a series of expert technical recommendations.

Still, not a bad way to earn a living, get to see the world etc.

 

[sihhi]

One of the problems with the history of feminism, is that it's tainted as a middle/ruling class female pursuit. I have found that this "taint" can form the basis for dismissiveness of the movement.

• It is often middle-(or even higher)-class-males doing the tainting.
• These sorts of males dominate socialist groups (and sometimes organisations like anti-cuts groups they seek to leech from).
• Instead of 'let's make feminism more working-class and solid by mobilising working-class women' they operate a 'let's actively disparage (or meaninglessly hamper) feminism so that (middle-class) women will be put off and join our organisation instead'.