Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

[revol68]

I don't agree with her there but I think she's trying to broaden the appeal of feminism and make it relevant to everyone. And it is relevant to all women.

Perils of activism I'd say

a feminism relevant to all women is a feminism reduced to apolitical platitudes. politics precedes identity, women arent some sort of homogenous entity. Feminism of substance cannot appeal to both a devout cathtfolic housewife or lesbian atheist. And any argument that women should be women before they are catholics, atheists, muslims, tories or communists serves to reinforce the notion of women being a reductive other, as some sort of pre political being.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

which implies it's a career.

eek.

 

[frogwoman]

it's more professionalisation of activism stuff no ...

 

[cesare]

it's more professionalisation of activism stuff no ...

Can you imagine on your CV:

<dates>
<job title> Professional Activist; Proletarian Democracy, Cis-Women division (officer)
<duties> I demonstrated organisational and team building skills in the successful design, production and deployment of the workers' bomb. I contributed to bringing the Proletarian Democracy aims and objectives to market, using a variety of platforms including but not limited to social and professional media networks. Using my proven verbal and written communication skills, I produced clear communicae (internal and external) together with press releases on a timely basis. I achieved excellent feedback throughout both 360degree exercises and 121 meetings.
<reason for leaving> career progression

 

[frogwoman]

anyone want to try and infiltrate the guardian with that

 

[cesare]

anyone want to try and infiltrate the guardian with that

Go for it!

 

[trashpony]

a feminism relevant to all women is a feminism reduced to apolitical platitudes. politics precedes identity, women arent some sort of homogenous entity. Feminism of substance cannot appeal to both a devout cathtfolic housewife or lesbian atheist. And any argument that women should be women before they are catholics, atheists, muslims, tories or communists serves to reinforce the notion of women being a reductive other, as some sort of pre political being.

I can kind of see your point but then aren't you veering towards intersectionality?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don't understand what the description 'feminism of substance' is supposed to mean.

 

[cesare]

I don't understand what the description 'feminism of substance' is supposed to mean.

As opposed to empty-headed, dizzy, ditsy feminism, perhaps?

 

[Treacle Toes]

As opposed to empty-headed, dizzy, ditsy feminism, perhaps?

Seriously though, I dislike the implied 'hierarchy' of the description.

 

[revol68]

As opposed to empty-headed, dizzy, ditsy feminism, perhaps?

More like the feminism is everything from Thatcher, mooncups, spicegirls and eating chocolate whilst pole dancing.

 

[revol68]

Seriously though, I dislike the implied 'hierarchy' of the description.

The hierarchy of feminism with political substance as being superior to fluffy platitudes, yeah i suppose that kind of hierarchy is ell krypto fascist.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I can kind of see your point but then aren't you veering towards intersectionality?

Well quite. There seem to be a lot of things levelled at the mere concept of intersectionality, things that have been discussed by people who've been advocates of intersectionality for a long time now. For example, as I mentioned on another thread a while ago, there are different models of intersectionality, like hierarchical, additive, and another I can't remember the name of at the moment (it's been a while). It's simply not true to say that "intersectionality is all about people trying to out-do each other in the 'woe is me' stakes." That can be what it leads to, and that can be how it ends up being practiced by some people. But if you strip away all the 'bad practice' you end up with something that is precisely saying "there is no homogeneous "black experience" or "female experience" or "gay experience" because everyone is a messy combination of a whole host of different things that positions them in different ways, at different times.

This is one of the instances where the wiki article on intersectionality is actually reasonably decent. It also touches on Marxist-feminist uses of/for it, which may be of interest to some.

 

[revol68]

I can kind of see your point but then aren't you veering towards intersectionality?

Not at all, intersectionality cuts across some the category of women by cutting it through with more discreet identities rather than politics.

 

[cesare]

More like the feminism is everything from Thatcher, mooncups, spicegirls and eating chocolate whilst pole dancing.

If there was manism, what do you think it would consist of?

 

[Treacle Toes]

The hierarchy of feminism with political substance as being superior to fluffy platitudes, yeah i suppose that kind of hierarchy is ell krypto fascist.

 

[Greebo]

If there was manism, what do you think it would consist of?

Allowing male human beings to be what they choose to be and to do what they're good at, rather than having at least some of their life choices limited by their genitals. Even now, a stay at home dad has a harder time than a stay at home mum.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Despite how it might be practiced in certain corners, really I see the concept of intersectionality being a way of highlighting how there are multiple oppressions at work on people all at the same time. That it's not enough to say "I'm a woman" and have that explain how you experience oppression. If we take class within the capitalist framework as the overarching system of oppression, intersectionality would simply tell us that within that framework you'll see different things work in different ways on different people depending on various categories that society has marked out. A working class recent immigrant to this country might face different institutionalised difficulties than someone else, for example. It's not about saying "because I'm brown skinned I have it worse than you" but rather, as I understand it, a way of trying to understand the different ways a whole range of oppressions and categories work to maintain the system of domination as a whole. It's not about pitting people against each other, but uncovering the ways in which all these oppressions work in unison (and try to pit people against each other, often).

 

[cesare]

Allowing male human beings to be what they choose to be and to do what they're good at, rather than having at least some of their life choices limited by their genitals. Even now, a stay at home dad has a harder time than a stay at home mum.

Yep. But it also might include dressing how they want and lifestyle choices.

 

[Greebo]

Yep. But it also might include dressing how they want and lifestyle choices.

I was forgetting about how limited men's choices are when it comes to clothing.

 

[cesare]

I was forgetting about how limited men's choices are when it comes to clothing.

Patriarchy

 

[Greebo]

Patriarchy

Not that matriarchies were perfect.

 

[cesare]

Not that matriarchies were perfect.

I don't think any system that's predicated on the dominance of a subset of humans is ever going to be perfect. Is it possible to achieve a perfect system though, and if so, what would it look like?

 

[Greebo]

I don't think any system that's predicated on the dominance of a subset of humans is ever going to be perfect. Is it possible to achieve a perfect system though, and if so, what would it look like?

Good question.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I was forgetting about how limited men's choices are when it comes to clothing.

I'm somewhat envious. The last piece of clothing I bought was a big comfy jumper from the men's section. I suspect my discomfort comes from having a body shape that doesn't conform to how all the clothes in the women's sections hang on the mannequins or look in the magazines, or even look on a lot of other women. A pair of jeans or trousers will either be too big around my waist or too tight on my hips, and so a whole host of negotiations have to come into play, where I decide whether to trudge around looking for that mythical pair that will look more or less okay, or if I decide to buy whatever, and then trudge around looking for a top that will cover up the offending areas, whilst still matching, somehow. And that top has to be big enough to fit my wide back without gaping where my almost non-existent tits are. And then when we factor into the equation the types of clothing that are deemed as socially acceptable, whereby things like comfort are thrown out of the window for fear you be labelled unfashionable, a frump, or just downright ugly ... I'll keep shopping in the men's section.

 

[revol68]

If there was manism, what do you think it would consist of?

I think the fact such a question isn't asked is evidence of sexism, no one would ask (well outside that dick from Sex and the City with the magazine column) in all seriousness "what do men want?" or hold one man as speaking for all men, or even entertain the idea of some sort "male" politics aprior to a political/ideological subjectivity. Generally white men aren't expected to prefix statements with "speaking as a white male" because the subtext is that white males speak from a position of universal reason, unattached to an identity, hence why the MOBO's would be unthinkable for white artists. The real racism isn't in the "favouring" of black artists (regardless of what Nick Griffin and co claim) but it is the undertone of white supremacy in the idea that the other is more attached to some primordial culture or community, whilst whites are cosmopolitans with a distance to culture. This is why I think identity politics are at their core reactionary, because they reproduce white male supremacy through the very mode in which they seek to oppose it.

 

[cesare]

We get nicer underwear though.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

We get nicer underwear though.

pics or stfu

 

[Greebo]

We get nicer underwear though.

Frequently less comfortable and durable too. Those are the breaks.

 

[cesare]

pics or stfu