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Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

cesare said:
And also some people do it from choice and not from conscription or economic necessity. And they shouldn't be demeaned for doing so. Far worse to become a copper out of choice!
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But, if you believe sex work is damaging to women as a whole, why would you not criticise women who choose to be involved in it?
 
Edie said:
Thank you :)
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The root of why many people don't approve of genuinely chosen sex work can probably be found in religion. They even call any such sex workers the "handmaidens of patriarchy". Why else would that imagery even occur to them?
 
cesare said:
To form an opinion that genuinely chosen sex work is damaging to "women as a whole" one would first need to have an opinion on what "women as a whole" should be like, surely?
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Ah I see. I guess the argument is that women as whole shouldn't be viewed primarily as sex objects whose own enjoyment of sex is secondary to a man's, who shouldn't be bought and used, and whose purpose isn't to serve men.
 
Thora said:
Ah I see. I guess the argument is that women as whole shouldn't be viewed primarily as sex objects whose own enjoyment of sex is secondary to a man's, who shouldn't be bought and used, and whose purpose isn't to serve men.
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I can see where that argument comes from, but I imagine that genuine sex workers consider their bodies to be their own, to do with as they please. And that the act of selling sex doesn't make them a sex object, because it's one act/series of acts rather than an expression of who they are as a person (for instance, I do not view my work as me in my entirety).

It's also a short leap from that argument against autonomy, to others of a similar nature eg pro-life.
 
cesare said:
I can see where that argument comes from, but I imagine that genuine sex workers consider their bodies to be their own, to do with as they please.
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I'll just make a LLETSA-style interruption here to say that a lot of people in the modern world don't have real control over their bodies, and this kind of "genuine" autonomy is always subject to a tight web of social pressures and economic demands.
 
cesare said:
I can see where that argument comes from, but I imagine that genuine sex workers consider their bodies to be their own, to do with as they please. And that the act of selling sex doesn't make them a sex object, because it's one act/series of acts rather than an expression of who they are as a person (for instance, I do not view my work as me in my entirety).

It's also a short leap from that argument against autonomy to others of a similar nature eg pro-life.
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Yes, you can argue that a woman should be free to do whatever they want with their body, but that does not mean that it isn't damaging (to herself or others). Feminism doesn't mean doing whatever you want with no consideration of the impact on others, does it?
 
Thora said:
Ah I see. I guess the argument is that women as whole shouldn't be viewed primarily as sex objects whose own enjoyment of sex is secondary to a man's, who shouldn't be bought and used, and whose purpose isn't to serve men.
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women as a whole, not women as a hole

see what i did there
 
Random said:
I'll just make a LLETSA-style interruption here to say that a lot of people in the modern world don't have real control over their bodies, and this kind of "genuine" autonomy is always subject to a tight web of social pressures and economic demands.
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Agreed. However, why should sex work be any worse than other work?
 
Thora said:
Yes, you can argue that a woman should be free to do whatever they want with their body, but that does not mean that it isn't damaging (to herself or others). Feminism doesn't mean doing whatever you want with no consideration of the impact on others, does it?
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Same as the pro-life argument when it comes down to it. The needs of the unborn, the rights of the father etc.
 
I think what I am trying to say with the choice thing is, an individual woman can make any decision she wants but just because it is a woman making it doesn't make it a feminist choice. If your choices are harming other women then they are not feminist actions (even if they are autonomous decisions). I think sex work is damaging, both to many/most of the women involved and to society, so if a person is making a true choice to be involved in it then that is something that could be criticised.
 
Thora said:
I think what I am trying to say with the choice thing is, an individual woman can make any decision she wants but just because it is a woman making it doesn't make it a feminist choice. If your choices are harming other women then they are not feminist actions (even if they are autonomous decisions). I think sex work is damaging, both to many/most of the women involved and to society, so if a person is making a true choice to be involved in it then that is something that could be criticised.
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How does a sex worker that services housebound disabled men, harm women? (For the sake of example).
 
cesare said:
Capitalism has made a huge industry of it. But I would sooner blame Capitalism than the individuals who make their choices within it.
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Are all individuals blameless, whatever they do within capitalism?

I wouldn't blame, say, individual factory workers making missile parts, but I would criticise someone who has lots of opportunities available to them but chooses to work in the arms trade for example.
 
Thora said:
I think what I am trying to say with the choice thing is, an individual woman can make any decision she wants but just because it is a woman making it doesn't make it a feminist choice. If your choices are harming other women then they are not feminist actions (even if they are autonomous decisions). I think sex work is damaging, both to many/most of the women involved and to society, so if a person is making a true choice to be involved in it then that is something that could be criticised.
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Just musing on this. Do you think a woman chosing to work in a menial minimum-wage job rather than doing sex work is more, or less, damaging to women "as a whole"?
 
cesare said:
Have a look at that link I provided for an insight. There's some very unpleasant stuff at the heart of what's emerging (in my view).
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There's definitely a tension between being either implicitly or explicitly "anti-fundamentalist", and having views that are, to all intents and purposes, fundamentalist.
 
Thora said:
I don't see the link, unless you are saying abortion damages women?
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Abortion can be damaging to women, both physically and emotionally. But not always. And in any event, I believe that it's the woman's right to choose. Sex work can also be damaging to women. But not always. And if a woman decides that's what she wants to do, it's as much her right to choose that as any other potentially damaging job.
 
cesare said:
How does a sex worker that services housebound disabled men, harm women? (For the sake of example).
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Doesn't it get a bit arbitrary if you start trying to find lines between good and bad sex work? I am leaning towards any form of buying or selling women for sex being damaging to women in this society.
 
Thora said:
Are all individuals blameless, whatever they do within capitalism?

I wouldn't blame, say, individual factory workers making missile parts, but I would criticise someone who has lots of opportunities available to them but chooses to work in the arms trade for example.
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I see no reason not to extend the same arguments against Capitalism to sex work. I don't see why it should be viewed as special, or an exception.
 
Thora said:
Doesn't it get a bit arbitrary if you start trying to find lines between good and bad sex work? I am leaning towards any form of buying or selling women for sex being damaging to women in this society.
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It's as arbitrary as finding lines between any kind of acceptable work, for men or women.
 
cesare said:
I see no reason not to extend the same arguments against Capitalism to sex work. I don't see why it should be viewed as special, or an exception.
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I do think it is exceptional. There is a difference between, for example, having sex with someone and cutting their hair. Certainly most people in this society do view sex as somewhat different to other everyday activities.
 
Thora said:
I do think it is exceptional. There is a difference between, for example, having sex with someone and cutting their hair. Certainly most people in this society do view sex as somewhat different to other everyday activities.
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Incidentally, sex workers aren't confined to having sex. Is it just the actual act of sex that's the problem for you? How about chat lines?
 
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