cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Unfortunately, whatever people's moral feelings on the matter, as Phil pointed out you can't get rid of prostitution unless you go down the prohibition route. Would you advocate that?
Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Thora
Differently Ethical
No, I don't think prohibition (or legalisation) would help matters. I do think giving vulnerable women more power and more options would help though.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I suppose that if you morally disapprove of prostitution, then you would want to get rid of it? Which is impossible unless you go down a prohibition route (which as pointed out doesn't necessarily eliminate it). Alternatively just take the line of harm reduction whilst disapproving.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I wouldn't want to make legal changes that would make it massively more harmful and have little effect on its prevalence.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Moral rectitude doesn't make it go away, either ( a general observation, not pointed at you).
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I'm not really sure what that's meant to mean tbf - are we just making a list of things which won't make prostitution go away?
In which case I'm adding truffles to the list.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I'm not sure that truffles add anything to the debate about the increasingly polarised position between (a) feminists that disapprove of sex work because they say that any kind of sex work damages all women, and (b) feminists that don't disapprove of sex work for whatever reason
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I'm not sure that truffles add anything to the debate about the increasingly polarised position between (a) feminists that disapprove of sex work because they say that any kind of sex work damages all women, and (b) feminists that don't disapprove of sex work for whatever reason
I didn't realise there was such a simple polarisation, but I've not been following micro-movements in feminist positions too closely.
Went to a feminist festival type thing a year or so back and was quite surprised by the presence of burlesque dancers. Got the impression that there was general tolerance if a little discomfort from some quarters.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
The discussion arose out of radical feminism and positions emerging or become more polarised/fundamentalist/exclusionary as illustrated by: http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/radfem-2012-first-speakers-announced/
I don't think there's a simple polarisation, because you can hold many views between the extremes.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Ok. I thought from your post before that there was an emerging 'split' into the two camps when you mentioned an 'increasingly polarised position between (a) feminists that disapprove of sex work because they say that any kind of sex work damages all women, and (b) feminists that don't disapprove of sex work for whatever reason'.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
In the context of radfem politics, there may be (hence the link).
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
The social conditions that cause sex work (whether it's done by web-cam sessions, telephone or live) must be ended. Capitalism and its sharp end - sex work - the commodification of your mental being and your body itself - degrades women. I see pornography and sex work as a continuum.
Sex work and pornography by its very nature divides women - into those who men pick to ejaculate into and those who they avoid. It drives wedges within women and men.
I look forward to a future where we will not have to endure even the concept of sex work, whether it is live or pre-recorded (pornography). Its existence weakens social struggle, and promotes the concept of payment for inter-personal relations - a vile concept. Some pro-sex-worker efforts might mean strengthening rightist forces that want girlfriend-experience escort services as in Japan or Korea, friend-purchasing as happens in the U.S. paying people to spread good words about others on the internet, and child-selling as happens across the third world (What does a two year old know what happens to it?). Once you allow sex work, its strengthens arguments in favour of markets for kidney sales, 'legalised, hospital-based healthy kidney extraction would limit the side effects of the organ trade' (legalised brothels would stop the STDs argument).
As pornography continues its encroachment on mainstream culture, those who market sex are driving to popularise fetishism and kinks (more market). They are also happy to have sex work be rebranded as a new version of pornography - about 'choices' and female 'economic empowerment' and self-determination. They are also out to cover every medium possible - hence the saturation of internet sex-shows, from pay-per-view dogging events to personalised 'custom' mutual masturbation sessions across computer cameras. All while television and phone line sex work continues. The sex industry naturally wishes to colonise any new space available. Arguing for further decriminalisation for johns, and legalised brothels via an end to laws against brothels, pandering and acting as a pimp - could be hijacked by profit-seeking elements into 'normalcy' for sex work, as appears to be the case for pornography.
The alienation around the nuclear marriage (limited socialised childcare, assumptions about responsibilities within it and high divorce rates, something happening across all classes) provides the consumers (usually middle-aged men, very many divorcees who believe sex should be theirs by right of a wallet). The ongoing neoliberal assault on the working-class provides the workforce (usually young working-class women). As long as both trends continue sex work and pornography will continue.
Having said all this, I don't believe giving the capitalist state power to control pornography or sex-work is necessarily the way forward. I respect a lot of what Andrea Dworkin and US radical feminists did, but the anti-pornography ordinances she wrote and were secured in states like Oregon simply allowed them
to target gay and lesbian bookshops that sold erotica first - these bookshops were also 'radical' spaces.
Massive resources went into court cases to defend the bookshops, reducing the movement's social programmes.
Anti-sex work measures that do not criminalise sex workers but do criminalise johns have been partially successful in Norway, Sweden and Iceland, but they won't succeed without generalised social struggle and economic opportunities for working-class people including women.
One dangerous result has emerged with state application of anti-sex trafficking legislation are the deporting of sex workers, ostensibly 'rescued' but forced to leave the country by G4S/BA removal at the same time.
The prospects for struggle in the sex work sector remain grim, to my knowledge neither the IUSW branch of GMB and nor the English Collective of Prostitutes have concentrated on trying to hold a strike of those they have gathered. I think they are wholly unable to enforce any kind of picket line. It doesn't do anyone any favours to suggest that further measures to protect johns, would change the situation. It hasn't done so in New Zealand, where prostitution has been decriminalised in 2003 and now has a very liberal regime where anyone can 'freely' purchase sex from a brothel.
The measures in both Norway criminalising johns and decriminalising sex workers, and in New Zealand decriminalising both - appear to have had positive results for women being able to report assaults and have had positive effects on prostitute safety.
In practice in Norway few johns are arrested by police hunting them, it is an easier legal mechanism for when a sex worker reports a crime of direct assault or sexual behaviour under threat of direct violence, for that john to be successfully prosecuted.
In New Zealand some claim that the legalisation has made no difference at all to efforts to stop prostitution of children:
There was a international survey of johns in about 2002 which found something like a fifth saying they prefered under 18s and four fifths saying they prefered under 25s, and child sex abuse is still continuing within the sex industry.
Sex work and pornography by its very nature divides women - into those who men pick to ejaculate into and those who they avoid. It drives wedges within women and men.
I look forward to a future where we will not have to endure even the concept of sex work, whether it is live or pre-recorded (pornography). Its existence weakens social struggle, and promotes the concept of payment for inter-personal relations - a vile concept. Some pro-sex-worker efforts might mean strengthening rightist forces that want girlfriend-experience escort services as in Japan or Korea, friend-purchasing as happens in the U.S. paying people to spread good words about others on the internet, and child-selling as happens across the third world (What does a two year old know what happens to it?). Once you allow sex work, its strengthens arguments in favour of markets for kidney sales, 'legalised, hospital-based healthy kidney extraction would limit the side effects of the organ trade' (legalised brothels would stop the STDs argument).
As pornography continues its encroachment on mainstream culture, those who market sex are driving to popularise fetishism and kinks (more market). They are also happy to have sex work be rebranded as a new version of pornography - about 'choices' and female 'economic empowerment' and self-determination. They are also out to cover every medium possible - hence the saturation of internet sex-shows, from pay-per-view dogging events to personalised 'custom' mutual masturbation sessions across computer cameras. All while television and phone line sex work continues. The sex industry naturally wishes to colonise any new space available. Arguing for further decriminalisation for johns, and legalised brothels via an end to laws against brothels, pandering and acting as a pimp - could be hijacked by profit-seeking elements into 'normalcy' for sex work, as appears to be the case for pornography.
The alienation around the nuclear marriage (limited socialised childcare, assumptions about responsibilities within it and high divorce rates, something happening across all classes) provides the consumers (usually middle-aged men, very many divorcees who believe sex should be theirs by right of a wallet). The ongoing neoliberal assault on the working-class provides the workforce (usually young working-class women). As long as both trends continue sex work and pornography will continue.
Having said all this, I don't believe giving the capitalist state power to control pornography or sex-work is necessarily the way forward. I respect a lot of what Andrea Dworkin and US radical feminists did, but the anti-pornography ordinances she wrote and were secured in states like Oregon simply allowed them
to target gay and lesbian bookshops that sold erotica first - these bookshops were also 'radical' spaces.
Massive resources went into court cases to defend the bookshops, reducing the movement's social programmes.
Anti-sex work measures that do not criminalise sex workers but do criminalise johns have been partially successful in Norway, Sweden and Iceland, but they won't succeed without generalised social struggle and economic opportunities for working-class people including women.
One dangerous result has emerged with state application of anti-sex trafficking legislation are the deporting of sex workers, ostensibly 'rescued' but forced to leave the country by G4S/BA removal at the same time.
The prospects for struggle in the sex work sector remain grim, to my knowledge neither the IUSW branch of GMB and nor the English Collective of Prostitutes have concentrated on trying to hold a strike of those they have gathered. I think they are wholly unable to enforce any kind of picket line. It doesn't do anyone any favours to suggest that further measures to protect johns, would change the situation. It hasn't done so in New Zealand, where prostitution has been decriminalised in 2003 and now has a very liberal regime where anyone can 'freely' purchase sex from a brothel.
The measures in both Norway criminalising johns and decriminalising sex workers, and in New Zealand decriminalising both - appear to have had positive results for women being able to report assaults and have had positive effects on prostitute safety.
In practice in Norway few johns are arrested by police hunting them, it is an easier legal mechanism for when a sex worker reports a crime of direct assault or sexual behaviour under threat of direct violence, for that john to be successfully prosecuted.
In New Zealand some claim that the legalisation has made no difference at all to efforts to stop prostitution of children:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0504/S00256.htm
There was a international survey of johns in about 2002 which found something like a fifth saying they prefered under 18s and four fifths saying they prefered under 25s, and child sex abuse is still continuing within the sex industry.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Higher reporting rates for rape/assaults though. But conviction rates don't seem to be much higher?
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Since the criminalisation of sex buying?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
That was my understanding. Am I wrong?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Street prostitution appears to have increased in New Zealand, going the opposite direction from Sweden.
The police in New Zealand say they are happy with the results because the street prostitution only occurs in areas that have the legalised brothels in them. Street prostitution cuts out overheads, a bit like unlicensed back garden cider selling, so it has increased or just become more visible where once it was hidden or dispersed and spread at a low density over a large area.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
I took a look at the situation a while ago and I didn't see that. Can you point me to that info; sorry for missing it.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It's ages since I looked at it. However, Sweden does have a very high level of rape/assault reporting, which may not be linked to criminalising the buying of sex of course. It may always have been high. I'm not sure.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
It's been high; since well before the sex-buying legislation.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I find the Swedish approach incredibly patronising, tbh. Men are criminalised for buying sex and sent on reeducation courses to show them how wrong they were if they're caught. If anything, this smacks of something akin to patriarchy to me - women selling sex being told by society that they are victims whether they consider themselves victims or not.
Perhaps more seriously, such criminalisation leaves women who are still prostitutes with no protection, doesn't it?
Perhaps more seriously, such criminalisation leaves women who are still prostitutes with no protection, doesn't it?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I think I've also read something to suggest that rape reporting is recorded differently in Sweden e.g. every incident which would have the effect of showing increased figures of eg domestic rape compared to eg the UK where (as I understand it) reporting of domestic rape is one incident per victim.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
How is that like patriarchy? Men are being re-educated not women.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It certainly seems unpopular with prostitutes.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
There is now no word for "prostitute" in official use in Sweden. The word instead used refers to "someone who has been prostituted". Not the the old words were anything but insulting, but the recent change in terminology reflects an official attitude informed by both Lutheranism and also a strand of feminism.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
That's interesting. Even the language changing ... you cannot be a prostitute, you can only be someone who has been prostituted.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Yes, that's it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
A change from active to passive. Taking women's autonomy away from them, no? Denying the possibility of their agency?
I'm not trying to deny all the insidious power relations that are involved in prostitution, but aren't the worst excesses of these tackled by ensuring that pimping is cracked down on?
Presumably male prosititution is also illegal in Sweden?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I can see why you said it was informed by Lutheranism.
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