Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

[Thora]

Incidentally, sex workers aren't confined to having sex. Is it just the actual act of sex that's the problem for you? How about chat lines?

Is talking dirty to someone on the phone just the same as cutting their hair then?

 

[kabbes]

And now faced with being asked for an opinion on radfem politics, from someone that grew up "in a much more radfem environment" you're reluctant and just offer again your opinion that you and your family don't think much of Cheryl Cole as a role model. Well, fine. Don't have her as one, then.

I can only remind you that I didn't choose to enter this thread, I was dragged into via a cross-post from another thread. A thread that was about Girls Aloud, which made it directly relevant to talk specifically about Cheryl Cole. A thread in which a claim was made about Cheryl Cole that I disagreed with. I had no intention for that to be presented in this thread as if I thought it was an important point to make about feminism generally.

 

[cesare]

I can only remind you that I didn't choose to enter this thread, I was dragged into via a cross-post from another thread. A thread that was about Girls Aloud, which made it directly relevant to talk specifically about Cheryl Cole. A thread in which a claim was made about Cheryl Cole that I disagreed with. I had no intention for that to be presented in this thread as if I thought it was an important point to make about feminism generally.

It was completely your choice about *how* you chose to enter the thread, even if you present Edie name checking you as in itself a position of being forced to respond.

 

[cesare]

Is talking dirty to someone on the phone just the same as cutting their hair then?

My point is that sex work encompasses more than just the actual act of sex.

 

[kabbes]

It was completely your choice about *how* you chose to enter the thread, even if you present Edie name checking you as in itself a position of being forced to respond.

Yes, and I entered it as I saw fit. But it's a bit rich of you telling me not to talk about Cheryl Cole when I am only here as a result of a refutation I made about a claim concerning Cheryl Cole. Within the context of this thread, there is no way I would ever have brought her up, so you can keep your patronising "just don't have her as a role model then" to yourself, thank you.

And thank you too, Edie, for your context-free cross-post. I really needed this. Thanks for the "bloody men" rhetoric when I dared to respond too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, the trans women acceptance has been an issue for a long time. But it seems to be getting far more vitriolic. Also, opinion seems to be polarising around the sex industry argument

Again.
I'm not sure it's wise for anyone, female or male, feminist or male chauvinist to be either proscriptive or prescriptive about the sex industry, except insofar as it might put the power (mostly economic and social) in the hands of the workers, not just the consumers and middlemen

There's also the "privilege" discourse, which seems to be gaining traction. And also this retreat into "safe spaces".

That's been going on for a while now though, hasn't it? I'm aware it has its' roots in the idea of safe havens for women, but generally applied to women suffering from intrafamilial violence up until the '80s when it started being used by a few activists across the activist scene as a formula for exclusion. Nowadays things seem to have flipped, with exclusionary intent being to the fore.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And just to summarise my own position on sex workers and feminism. If you think that sex work is demeaning to the women involved, if you think they're being abused and you think it's damaging to women in general, then your move should surely be to support those workers, to find out what you can do to make their bargaining position stronger. Otherwise you're simply piling on the pressure on those people who're already facing a hard time.

There's always been a current in feminism which is as disapproving of sex work, and as contemptuous of sex workers, as is your average Catholic priest, unfortunately. It's not a powerful current presently, but it's there all the same.

 

[cesare]

Yes, and I entered it as I saw fit. But it's a bit rich of you telling me not to talk about Cheryl Cole when I am only here as a result of a refutation I made about a claim concerning Cheryl Cole. Within the context of this thread, there is no way I would ever have brought her up, so you can keep your patronising "just don't have her as a rile model then" to yourself, thank you.

And thank you too, Edie, for your context-free cross-post. I really needed this.

I didn't tell you not to talk about Cheryl Cole. Again with your misrepresentations. And if you can't handle being patronised, here's a tip - don't do it yourself.

 

[phildwyer]

The point about prostitution is that it can't be abolished. Many anthropologists believe that it actually precedes unremunerated sex, historically speaking. It has always existed everywhere. We can safely assume that it always will.

So given that, the aim should be to make it as harmless as possible for all concerned. Which can't be done through prohibition.

 

[Thora]

My point is that sex work encompasses more than just the actual act of sex.

It does, does that make a difference though?

 

[Random]

Kabbes, I think you're taking a lot of this too personally. Maybe you should just leave it for a bit?

 

[Thora]

There's always been a current in feminism which is as disapproving of sex work, and as contemptuous of sex workers, as is your average Catholic priest, unfortunately. It's not a powerful current presently, but it's there all the same.

I have never met anyone who is contemptuous of sex workers - or at least the majority of sex workers. Most feminists who disagree with sex work do because it generally involves women who have the fewest choices and least power in society.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But, if you believe sex work is damaging to women as a whole, why would you not criticise women who choose to be involved in it?

Depends on the basis for the belief, I'd have thought. Conceptually, you could make a case for the actions of sex workers (a minority of women) damaging the mass of women, but realistically you'd be building your castle on sand. Women are heterogeneous, effects are going to be diverse and uneven.

 

[cesare]

That's been going on for a while now though, hasn't it? I'm aware it has its' roots in the idea of safe havens for women, but generally applied to women suffering from intrafamilial violence up until the '80s when it started being used by a few activists across the activist scene as a formula for exclusion. Nowadays things seem to have flipped, with exclusionary intent being to the fore.

Yes, it has. But it seems to be gathering pace. For example, I saw someone complaining (in response to a separate incident of chauvinism) that the Bookfair didn't have "safe spaces". For me, it's not just the exclusionary aspect but also the act of petitioning/demanding ... From who? All spaces should be safe unless it's clear that there's a dangerous element for example the risk of being arrested.

 

[Thora]

Depends on the basis for the belief, I'd have thought. Conceptually, you could make a case for the actions of sex workers (a minority of women) damaging the mass of women, but realistically you'd be building your castle on sand. Women are heterogeneous, effects are going to be diverse and uneven.

The actions of most sex workers are not freely made choices though are they?

 

[cesare]

It does, does that make a difference though?

Well, that's my question really. Is it the act of sex itself that's the problem ie anti-chosen-prostitution, or is it an argument against all sex work?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have never met anyone who is contemptuous of sex workers - or at least the majority of sex workers. Most feminists who disagree with sex work do because it generally involves women who have the fewest choices and least power in society.

I can only say "you're lucky". I've heard some quite vicious stuff about local prostitutes from women who call themselves feminists, and some pretty revolting "debate" back in the '80s about "stupid junkie sluts dragging the cause down"

 

[Thora]

Well, that's my question really. Is it the act of sex itself that's the problem ie anti-chosen-prostitution, or is it an argument against all sex work?

Sorry, I'm not following you - I thought we were talking about sex work as in sexual performance for money. Do you mean some forms of sex work should be considered separately?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The actions of most sex workers are not freely made choices though are they?

I don't know enough about what you class as sex work, or what you class as choice to answer you on that score.

 

[kabbes]

Kabbes, I think you're taking a lot of this too personally. Maybe you should just leave it for a bit?

I am taking it personally. I feels pretty personal, to be honest. Cesare said that I would let those having meetings in strip clubs off lightly and backed it up with lots of "men shouldn't be posting about this anyway" stuff, which after five years of me posting about feminism feels like a slap in the face. And Edie chose to quote a post of mine from a completely different thread and then start up with her "bloody men" rhetoric when I defended it. It's fair to say that my feelings are hurt.

Tell you what, I'll just put both of them on ignore and be done with it.

 

[cesare]

Sorry, I'm not following you - I thought we were talking about sex work as in sexual performance for money. Do you mean some forms of sex work should be considered separately?

It's in response to you providing the two examples of selling sex to cutting hair. I was suggesting that there's a lot between those two positions.

 

[Thora]

It's in response to you providing the two examples of selling sex to cutting hair. I was suggesting that there's a lot between those two positions.

What is sex work if not selling sex/sexual performance? Hairdressers are not providing a sexual service.

 

[cesare]

What is sex work if not selling sex/sexual performance? Hairdressers are not providing a sexual service.

I'm asking if working on a chat line (which is selling sex) is worse than cutting hair? And if so, why?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is it safe to come back in here yet?

I have been a bit put off by the recent manifestations of some overgrown males doing the equivelant of demanding to still be breast fed because mummy will always belong to them! Damn her and any like her that put their foot down at some point to take ownership back/enforce boundaries over their bodies and their narratives/identities.

 

[Thora]

I'm asking if working on a chat line (which is selling sex) is worse than cutting hair? And if so, why?

Yes, because sex work damages women. As an industry in damages women.

I don't doubt that some women, in positions of relative power with many choices available to them, choose to do sex work in a safe and enjoyable way. But I also think this legitimises buying/selling woman for sex - so it is fine to buy a woman off the street because look at Belle Du Jour - she loved being a prostitute!

 

[Random]

I am taking it personally. I feels pretty personal, to be honest. Cesare said that I would let those having meetings in strip clubs off lightly and backed it up with lots of "men shouldn't be posting about this anyway" stuff, which after five years of me posting about feminism feels like a slap in the face. And Edie chose to quote a post of mine from a completely different thread and then start up with her "bloody men" rhetoric when I defended it. It's fair to say that my feelings are hurt.

Tell you what, I'll just put both of them on ignore and be done with it.

Sorry, I should have written that as a PM. By all means take stuff personally!

 

[ViolentPanda]

What is sex work if not selling sex/sexual performance? Hairdressers are not providing a sexual service.

They may be facilitating it, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, because sex work damages women.

Please quantify!

 

[cesare]

Yes, because sex work damages women.

Sex work *potentially* damages women. But not always.

 

[Thora]

Sex work *potentially* damages women. But not always.

Potentially damages individual women. Is damaging to women as a social group.