Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

[Agent Sparrow]

Can people stop posting so fast please. I'm playing scrabble and it's hard to do both!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nobody talked about 'role models' a few decades ago. Nor about 'sending out messages' and all the rest of the cod-psychological crap we're now subjected to.

You're right. We didn't.

We used different names for those concepts. We talked about "father figures" and "body language" a few decades ago. Same wine, different bottles.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

Perhaps you could help here? You could model how it's done by going back up the thread to your post #546 and thinking about it in the context of what you have just agreed with.

I could, but maybe I don't want to.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I could, but maybe I don't want to.

So you acccept your share of the responsibility for making the world such a fucking horrible place then?

Perhaps. Unfortunately, most people have neither the time nor the inclination (not to mention the ability and opportunity)-which helps explain why the world is such a fucking horrible place.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

You're right. We didn't.

We used different names for those concepts. We talked about "father figures" and "body language" a few decades ago. Same wine, different bottles.

More insidious now that all kinds of oddballs, freaks, charlatans and lunatics are beamed into our homes day and night without end, and most of them pushed at us as supposed 'role models.' Even Jimmy Savile was a 'role model' in the eyes of many not long ago.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

So you acccept your share of the responsibility for making the world such a fucking horrible place then?

Yes. So should you. It's something you can't do that much about.

 

[Edie]

Don't see what's idiotic. I didn't say I 'don't see the point of female role models in positions of power.' I said, rather, that the idea of conscious 'role models' is dubious. And what I meant is dubious as in infantile (and just plain wrong: if everybody has role models it implies there's a line of role models stretching back to an ultimate role model: it's clearly just another one of those straw clutching inventions aimed at filling the void left by the absence of the great all-seeing creator.)

Nobody talked about 'role models' a few decades ago. Nor about 'sending out messages' and all the rest of the cod-psychological crap we're now subjected to.

Its idiotic because you don't even have the nous to appreciate that the choices, opportunities and support you get from society as a man afford you a power that women have to justify and fight for. That you cannot see how being surrounded by men in positions of authority, having decisions made for us (about us) by men, CONSTANTLY acts as a 'role model' to us all, whether you want to call it that name or not. Open your eyes.

Who was that prick in the news recently saying the abortion limit should be dropped to 12 weeks? How a fucking man thinks he has the right to say that I'll never fuckin know.

 

[cesare]

Yeah, and that Mehdi Hasan who wrote that pitiful piece about saying that you can be "left" and also pro-life.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yes. So should you. It's something you can't do that much about.

How do you know I don't do anything/those things?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This isn't what the idea of conscious role models is about, though. The latter is a recent innovation, a media-driven concept aimed at turning us all into gormless drones who try uselessly to imitate those who earn more money in a day than we do in a decade.

I mean, David 'interesting' Beckham or Wayne fucking Rooney as 'role models? '

It's not particularly modern. The idea of "positive role models" dates back to the 1960s, and it wasn't media-driven until the '90s, before that it was an educational concept - present children with positive role models that they might aspire to imitate, be they sportspersons, artists, scientists or whatever. The fact that the media attempt to use the idea that every person with the remotest soupçon of celebrity is a potential role model is merely a mechanism by which the same media can then negatively or positively judge the behaviour of that person. It doesn't bear much actual similarity to the concept's proper meaning.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

Its idiotic because you don't even have the nous to appreciate that the choices, opportunities and support you get from society as a man afford you a power that women have to justify and fight for. That you cannot see how being surrounded by men in positions of authority, having decisions made for us (about us) by men, CONSTANTLY acts as a 'role model' to us all, whether you want to call it that name or not. Open your eyes.

Who was that prick in the news recently saying the abortion limit should be dropped to 12 weeks? How a fucking man thinks he has the right to say that I'll never fuckin know.

Most men have no more power than most women. Most men don't even seek it. Most men are also ordered about by other men (and some women.) If others want to see those who make our decisions for us as some sort of 'role model,' that's up to them. Personally, I'd rather wake from the nightmare.

 

[cesare]

It's not particularly modern. The idea of "positive role models" dates back to the 1960s, and it wasn't media-driven until the '90s, before that it was an educational concept - present children with positive role models that they might aspire to imitate, be they sportspersons, artists, scientists or whatever. The fact that the media attempt to use the idea that every person with the remotest soupçon of celebrity is a potential role model is merely a mechanism by which the same media can then negatively or positively judge the behaviour of that person. It doesn't bear much actual similarity to the concept's proper meaning.

Aye, even educational concepts can be hijacked in the pursuit of profit.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

Who was that prick in the news recently saying the abortion limit should be dropped to 12 weeks? How a fucking man thinks he has the right to say that I'll never fuckin know.

I don't agree with him, but of course he has a right to say it. Anybody has the right to say more or less anything about anything, or to disagree. And even if restrictions are placed on that right, people will still say it anyway.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

How do you know I don't do anything/those things?

I'm sure you do lots of things. The world is still a horrible place.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More insidious now that all kinds of oddballs, freaks, charlatans and lunatics are beamed into our homes day and night without end, and most of them pushed at us as supposed 'role models.' Even Jimmy Savile was a 'role model' in the eyes of many not long ago.

Most people have the cognitive tools that render them able to sort the fiction on the idiot box from the reality of their everyday lives, and act accordingly.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

It's not particularly modern. The idea of "positive role models" dates back to the 1960s, and it wasn't media-driven until the '90s, before that it was an educational concept - present children with positive role models that they might aspire to imitate, be they sportspersons, artists, scientists or whatever. The fact that the media attempt to use the idea that every person with the remotest soupçon of celebrity is a potential role model is merely a mechanism by which the same media can then negatively or positively judge the behaviour of that person. It doesn't bear much actual similarity to the concept's proper meaning.

Yes-it's when dubious, crackpot hippy idealism went mainstream in alliance with neo-liberal economics.

That bald guy with the Tories on The Thick of It isn't there for nothing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can people stop posting so fast please. I'm playing scrabble and it's hard to do both!

But A.S., you are STRONG, you are INVINCIBLE, you are WOMAN!!!

 

[U.N. Arrator]

Most people have the cognitive tools that render them able to sort the fiction on the idiot box from the reality of their everyday lives, and act accordingly.

Perhaps most people do, but lots don't. Job done.

 

[Edie]

Most men have no more power than most women. Most men don't even seek it. Most men are also ordered about by other men (and some women.) If others want to see those who make our decisions for us as some sort of role model,' that's up to them. Personally, I'd rather wake from the nightmare.

This is absolute bullshit.

Men have economic and social power over women in pretty much all aspects of life. The most blindingly obvious examples being a mans ability to walk away from raising children with few repercussions, the fact he doesn't shoulder the economic burden of having time off work to care for children, the fact he can more easily reach positions of authority, and the simple fact he can punch harder.

Wake up.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Most men have no more power than most women. Most men don't even seek it. Most men are also ordered about by other men (and some women.) If others want to see those who make our decisions for us as some sort of 'role model,' that's up to them. Personally, I'd rather wake from the nightmare.

You say role models are not conscious (implying there are unconscious things at work), and then you say this?

If you factor out other forms of power, like for like men will have more power than their matched female counterpart.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its idiotic because you don't even have the nous to appreciate that the choices, opportunities and support you get from society as a man afford you a power that women have to justify and fight for. That you cannot see how being surrounded by men in positions of authority, having decisions made for us (about us) by men, CONSTANTLY acts as a 'role model' to us all, whether you want to call it that name or not. Open your eyes.

Male "policing" of what it means to be a woman. It's not very savoury, is it? It's what leads to absolutely mindless crap like rape myths.

Who was that prick in the news recently saying the abortion limit should be dropped to 12 weeks? How a fucking man thinks he has the right to say that I'll never fuckin know.

He has a right to hold his opinion, however stupid or rancid it is.
What he doesn't have is the right to enforce his opinion on others. Personally, I like idiots who show themselves up as idiots. it lets us know who to throw the bags full of rotten liver at.

 

[U.N. Arrator]

This is absolute bullshit.

Men have economic and social power over women in pretty much all aspects of life. The most blindingly obvious examples being a mans ability to walk away from raising children with few repercussions, the fact he doesn't shoulder the economic burden of having time off work to care for children, the fact he can more easily reach positions of authority, and the simple fact they can punch harder.

Wake up.

Most men have enough of a conscience not to walk away from their families (and plenty of women do walk away from their families.) Lots of working class men share in the burden of raising a family out of sheer necessity.

Most men can't reach any position of authority, nor do they seek to. Most men do not punch other men, let alone women.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Quite an impressive thread hijack actually. Perhaps in part the world is a horrible place because some people prefer to say stuff just to get a reaction and wind others up instead of listening and modifying their own behaviour?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, and that Mehdi Hasan who wrote that pitiful piece about saying that you can be "left" and also pro-life.

It was only a page long, but it made me groan half a dozen times even though his intent wasn't malicious. You could just see all sorts of people using it as justification for pro-life arguments of a "look, even the left agree with us".

 

[weepiper]

Most men have enough of a conscience not to walk away from their families (and plenty of women do walk away from their families.) Lots of working class men share in the burden of raising a family out of sheer necessity.

Most men can't reach any position of authority, nor do they seek to. Most men do not punch other men, let alone women.

You have the air of a returner.

 

[cesare]

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Btw, I thought everyone might like to know I won the scrabble. For the sisterhood, natch.

 

[weepiper]

This is absolute bullshit.

Total utter and complete.

 

[phildwyer]

You have the air of a returner.

You have the air of an airhead, but do you see us complaining?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Most men have no more power than most women. Most men don't even seek it. Most men are also ordered about by other men (and some women.) If others want to see those who make our decisions for us as some sort of 'role model,' that's up to them. Personally, I'd rather wake from the nightmare.

Men as a gender do, however, benefit, both directly and indirectly, from existing within a patriarchal society.