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Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

Her explanation is getting things mixed up. Neoliberalism - the collapse in the rate of profit - is the steam-roller that is now forcing single mothers with young kids to seek work or lose benefits etc.
It's capitalism that forces women back to work after 6 months post-partum - not an effect of feminism. These things aren't effects of the feminist movement - intended or unintended.

The fight for work has been a feminist campaign far longer than since the 1970s, it had to be fought in the early Edwardian era to allow women entry into even the limited number of professions.
Also the women who you describe will always be at the mercy of their potentially abusive male husbands, if they remain dependent on them.

Fay Weldon is - now - either an extreme liberal feminist or not a feminist at all. She fairly recently proposed sterilising all women until they reached the age of 20.

My mum used to say something along the lines of "in the '50s you fought for the right to work, in the '60s and '70s you fought for equal pay, by the '80s you had no choice but to work because a single wage couldn't sustain a couple, let alone a couple with children".
Which pretty much sums up the effect that increasingly-unrestricted capitalism has had on "choice" for women.
 
The very concept of a role model is dubious for anybody aged more than about eleven.
Oh I dunno. We certainly seem to develop most of our values in our childhood, and particularly our teens so older than 11, and we do often retain those values. But as was said earlier, no man (or women) is an island, and the way others act around us, particularly those whom we see connections with on some level, will influence us in some way.
 
Sorry to inconvenience you by disagreeing :p And I quoted you so you knew, just thought this thread was a more appropriate thread for it *shrugs*

So your problem with Cheryl is that she's done well by playing men at their own game?

There's power in sexuality kabbes. I think it's more than ok to use it, I resent being told otherwise. Men like to have this image of feminists of being lesbian cardigan wearers. Wonder why that is.

And yet those same blokes get their rocks off over lesbian* porn!

*When I say "lesbian porn", I mean the frankly scary stuff where 2 women in expensive lingerie, with immaculate make-up and mahoossive nail extensions lick and finger each other. Why scary? There's no way I'd want 2 or 3 fingers with big old nails on them up me!! :eek:
 
Speaks a man I betcha. A man so unconsciously surrounded by role models he don't even recognise they are. They are just normal men doing what men do. Run things.


A man, yes, but I have no power whatsoever and have never consciously modelled myself on anybody. The idea of role models implies conscious imitation.
 
And yet those same blokes get their rocks off over lesbian* porn!

*When I say "lesbian porn", I mean the frankly scary stuff where 2 women in expensive lingerie, with immaculate make-up and mahoossive nail extensions lick and finger each other. Why scary? There's no way I'd want 2 or 3 fingers with big old nails on them up me!! :eek:
I swear to god a disproportionate number of homophobic men want MFF.

Anyway I get the feeling that I'm not really contributing to this debate in any kind of coherent way cos I'm just fucking angry so I should back out.
 
I swear to god a disproportionate number of homophobic men want MFF.

Anyway I get the feeling that I'm not really contributing to this debate in any kind of coherent way cos I'm just fucking angry so I should back out.
It happens everytime on feminism threads :D Bunch of bloody men turn up telling us what feminism is/isn't/should be :D

Stick with it :D
 
A man, yes, but I have no power whatsoever and have never consciously modelled myself on anybody. The idea of role models implies conscious imitation.
Your an idiot.

You enter a debate of feminism stating that you are a man with no power whatsoever. And then that you don't see the point of female role models in positions of power.

Jog on.
 
Your an idiot.

You enter a debate of feminism stating that you are a man with no power whatsoever. And then that you don't see the point of female role models in positions of power.

Jog on.



Don't see what's idiotic. I didn't say I 'don't see the point of female role models in positions of power.' I said, rather, that the idea of conscious 'role models' is dubious. And what I meant is dubious as in infantile (and just plain wrong: if everybody has role models it implies there's a line of role models stretching back to an ultimate role model: it's clearly just another one of those straw clutching inventions aimed at filling the void left by the absence of the great all-seeing creator.)

Nobody talked about 'role models' a few decades ago. Nor about 'sending out messages' and all the rest of the cod-psychological crap we're now subjected to.
 
Oh I dunno. We certainly seem to develop most of our values in our childhood, and particularly our teens so older than 11, and we do often retain those values. But as was said earlier, no man (or women) is an island, and the way others act around us, particularly those whom we see connections with on some level, will influence us in some way.

^^^^This.
We also actively seek mentors for certain roles within our adult life.
 
Apart from a) understand the process, b) consciously challenge the negative consequences, and c) try and change the original stimulus so it's not such a problem in the first place.



Perhaps. Unfortunately, most people have neither the time nor the inclination (not to mention the ability and opportunity)-which helps explain why the world is such a fucking horrible place.
 
A man, yes, but I have no power whatsoever and have never consciously modelled myself on anybody. The idea of role models implies conscious imitation.

Nope, it doesn't, unless you ignore all the developmental research that says imitation is also unconscious - that exposure is enough to promote behaviours, without a conscious choice on the part of the imitator.

Perhaps you know something that 80+ years of developmental psychologists haven't discovered, though!
 
You are just unconscious of your power.


I did once threaten to report a parcel delivery driver for tapping quietly on the front door and then putting a card through and trying to fuck off before I had chance to get downstairs and pull my kecks on.
 
Perhaps. Unfortunately, most people have neither the time nor the inclination (not to mention the ability and opportunity)-which helps explain why the world is such a fucking horrible place.
For those most oppressed by our patriarchal capitalist system, there is no choice but to fight it to survive.
 
Perhaps. Unfortunately, most people have neither the time nor the inclination (not to mention the ability and opportunity)-which helps explain why the world is such a fucking horrible place.


Perhaps you could help here? You could model how it's done by going back up the thread to your post #546 and thinking about it in the context of what you have just agreed with. :)

a) understand the process, b) consciously challenge the negative consequences, and c) try and change the original stimulus so it's not such a problem in the first place.
 
Nope, it doesn't, unless you ignore all the developmental research that says imitation is also unconscious - that exposure is enough to promote behaviours, without a conscious choice on the part of the imitator.

Perhaps you know something that 80+ years of developmental psychologists haven't discovered, though!




This isn't what the idea of conscious role models is about, though. The latter is a recent innovation, a media-driven concept aimed at turning us all into gormless drones who try uselessly to imitate those who earn more money in a day than we do in a decade.

I mean, David 'interesting' Beckham or Wayne fucking Rooney as 'role models? '
 
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