Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
My mum used to say something along the lines of "in the '50s you fought for the right to work, in the '60s and '70s you fought for equal pay, by the '80s you had no choice but to work because a single wage couldn't sustain a couple, let alone a couple with children".
Which pretty much sums up the effect that increasingly-unrestricted capitalism has had on "choice" for women.
Speaks a man I betcha. A man so unconsciously surrounded by role models he don't even recognise they are. They are just normal men doing what men do. Run things.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Oh I dunno. We certainly seem to develop most of our values in our childhood, and particularly our teens so older than 11, and we do often retain those values. But as was said earlier, no man (or women) is an island, and the way others act around us, particularly those whom we see connections with on some level, will influence us in some way.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Sorry to inconvenience you by disagreeingAnd I quoted you so you knew, just thought this thread was a more appropriate thread for it *shrugs*
So your problem with Cheryl is that she's done well by playing men at their own game?
There's power in sexuality kabbes. I think it's more than ok to use it, I resent being told otherwise. Men like to have this image of feminists of being lesbian cardigan wearers. Wonder why that is.
And yet those same blokes get their rocks off over lesbian* porn!
*When I say "lesbian porn", I mean the frankly scary stuff where 2 women in expensive lingerie, with immaculate make-up and mahoossive nail extensions lick and finger each other. Why scary? There's no way I'd want 2 or 3 fingers with big old nails on them up me!!
A man, yes, but I have no power whatsoever and have never consciously modelled myself on anybody. The idea of role models implies conscious imitation.
I swear to god a disproportionate number of homophobic men want MFF.And yet those same blokes get their rocks off over lesbian* porn!
*When I say "lesbian porn", I mean the frankly scary stuff where 2 women in expensive lingerie, with immaculate make-up and mahoossive nail extensions lick and finger each other. Why scary? There's no way I'd want 2 or 3 fingers with big old nails on them up me!!
Anyway I get the feeling that I'm not really contributing to this debate in any kind of coherent way cos I'm just fucking angry so I should back out.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
What do you mean by power?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It happens everytime on feminism threads
Bunch of bloody men turn up telling us what feminism is/isn't/should be Stick with it
Your an idiot.
You enter a debate of feminism stating that you are a man with no power whatsoever. And then that you don't see the point of female role models in positions of power.
Jog on.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You're as entitled to your opinion as she is to hers.
Personally, I don't think either of you have much behind what you're saying.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
But it's the unconscious modelling which is the most insidious and damaging
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's not something that's age-dependent, it's role-dependent, unless you're assuming that role model means "a child's idealised picture of an adult of their gender".
Don't see what's idiotic. I didn't say I 'don't see the point of female role models in positions of power.' I said, rather, that the idea of conscious 'role models' is dubious. And what I meant is dubious as in infantile (and just plain wrong: if everybody has role models it implies there's a line of role models stretching back to an ultimate role model: it's clearly just another one of those straw clutching inventions aimed at filling the void left by the absence of the great all-seeing creator.)
Nobody talked about 'role models' a few decades ago. Nor about 'sending out messages' and all the rest of the cod-psychological crap we're now subjected to.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
My mate wants to know "what would it say about me if the only threesome I'd ever participated in was MMF"?
Power over other people on a large or small scale. Like most other people, in reality I don't even have any power over my own thoughts let alone anything else.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
^^^^This.
We also actively seek mentors for certain roles within our adult life.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It happens everytime on feminism threads
Stick with it
Sorry.
But it's the unconscious modelling which is the most insidious and damaging
You can't do much about what comes unconsciously.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Do you know ... I walked away from the keyboard at that point, and just returned to it to say "except VP who doesn't actually undermine our own agency for change".Sorry.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Apart from a) understand the process, b) consciously challenge the negative consequences, and c) try and change the original stimulus so it's not such a problem in the first place.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You are just unconscious of your power.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Yeah VP, you're allowed. On feminist threads you can be an honoury lady! 
Perhaps. Unfortunately, most people have neither the time nor the inclination (not to mention the ability and opportunity)-which helps explain why the world is such a fucking horrible place.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Nope, it doesn't, unless you ignore all the developmental research that says imitation is also unconscious - that exposure is enough to promote behaviours, without a conscious choice on the part of the imitator.
Perhaps you know something that 80+ years of developmental psychologists haven't discovered, though!
I did once threaten to report a parcel delivery driver for tapping quietly on the front door and then putting a card through and trying to fuck off before I had chance to get downstairs and pull my kecks on.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
For those most oppressed by our patriarchal capitalist system, there is no choice but to fight it to survive.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
But it's the unconscious modelling which is the most insidious and damaging
Some of it is, and some of it is perfectly benign. Like any influence, we can be swayed by the good as well as the bad.
Treacle Toes
Time
Perhaps you could help here? You could model how it's done by going back up the thread to your post #546 and thinking about it in the context of what you have just agreed with.
This isn't what the idea of conscious role models is about, though. The latter is a recent innovation, a media-driven concept aimed at turning us all into gormless drones who try uselessly to imitate those who earn more money in a day than we do in a decade.
I mean, David 'interesting' Beckham or Wayne fucking Rooney as 'role models? '
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