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Anti-paedophile demo - Weymouth

some people are just ...erm....insecure about their intellectual abilities.

Yeah, it's weird. Like, maybe I like getting involved in intellectual debates, but that doesn't mean I expect everyone else to want to. But the feedback coming from that direction seems to be saying "how dare you want to use logic and reason to argue here, when I am trying to do it all with appeals to emotion, invective, and stamping of my tiny foot!".

*shrug*
 
Can you tell me where I've "stamped my tiny foot" please, or used emotion?!

The only hysteria I see is coming from the two of you screaming "kneejerk!!" every two minutes!
 
Can you tell me where I've "stamped my tiny foot" please, or used emotion?!

The only hysteria I see is coming from the two of you screaming "kneejerk!!" every two minutes!

c7.48.4.kneejerk.jpg

:D:D:D:D
 
LOL you really have swallowed it all haven;t you?

I bet you say things like "Traffickers" and "groomers" and "internet predators" don't you? That's when you aren't ranting about "beasts" and filth" and "scum." Your entire vocabulary is written by the daily mail and the sun

Well, to be fair, the legends around organisations such as the Paedophile Information Exchange pre-date the interest of most tabloids in "pervert networks", so it isn't merely a case of "swallowing it (ooh errr, missus!).
 
Animal lovers, I believe they like to be called. Not to be confused with furries. You'll be able to find a chatroom somewhere where you can talk to them and find out more :)

Zoophiles.
People who have sexual relations with animals or Friends of Chessington Zoo? You decide!
 
It would be good to have a discussion about what we think should happen, at least in terms of decriminalising normal teenage sexual activity.

It's absurd to have such laws on the statute book!

Unfortunately, even the most closely scrutinised and engineered legislation will generally have unintentional loopholes in it, and you can bet that specifically legislating the decriminalisation of normal teenage sexual activity is a minefield our legislators aren't willing to touch with a bargepole, for that very reason.
 
Unfortunately, even the most closely scrutinised and engineered legislation will generally have unintentional loopholes in it, and you can bet that specifically legislating the decriminalisation of normal teenage sexual activity is a minefield our legislators aren't willing to touch with a bargepole, for that very reason.

OTOH, our legislators then have to accept - which they undoubtedly will not - that the law will quite often be an ass.

We see enough of this with the "mission creep" around all kinds of other legislation - anti-terrorist laws that are suddenly being used to justify snooping on people trying to get their kids into certain schools, for example, and there's plenty more where that came from.

So the prospect of a police force using a piece of legislation in a spirit it was never intended to be used isn't rare or unusual.

Sure, we need laws to protect people from exploitation, sexually or otherwise, and they will - like most laws - be somewhat broad-brush and ambiguous in the boundary cases. The difference here is that laws around sexual activity around the boundary of age of consent are all wrapped up with ludicrous layers of hysteria and media-fuelled hype about it all, coupled with inaccurate stereotypes and unrepresentative claims which are then taken as representative.

And that's what this thread's really about - the stupidity and wilful ignorance that underpins not only the way we make our new laws (Sarah's Law, FFS :rolleyes:) but the way we implement the ones we've already got.
 
My opinion FWIW

The debate regarding the prevalence of predatory child abusers, like the debate regarding the prevalence of human trafficking for the purposes of forced / coerced prostitution, easily becomes polarised in such a way that intelligent debate and attempts at thinking often degenerate into emotive name calling people clinging on to their respective entrenched positions.

I'll just say a little bit about myself, here. I was abused as a child, not as terribly as some children were abused, but abused nonetheless. I do not want to go into details, but the issue of abuse divided my family, basically my brother and I were clear that we had been abused (and were were abused more than my sisters) whereas my 2 sisters decided that what happened was sort of abusive but not to the extent that my bro and I experienced it.

Obviously over the years people's perspectives changed a little, one of my sisters now acknowledges that we were abused, but my other sister refuses to think about the issue and starts to cry and get angry if anyone so much as tries to discuss the issue. Obviously it is cruel to try to make someone think about something that they cannot cope with so the subject is effectively off limits.

Now, my brother and me, we have an ability to sense / notice abuse to the point that it's frankly a bit of a burden.

If something nasty is happening somewhere I detect it almost instinctively, same with my brother. He is a senior social worker and one of the first things he achieved when he first started work as a social worker working with vulnerable street drinkers, was to expose an undercover ring of predatory child abusers in positions of authority who had been abusing children for decades.

My sister on the other hand, frankly people could be getting shot / kidnapped / raped under her very nose and she would remain cheerfully oblivious to what was going on. Her attention would be fixated on the beautiful blue of the sky or the prettiness of a bird in a tree. Everything is "lovely" in her world.

The point I want to make when talking about my family is that although we had the same parents, we all subjectively had different parents. Also, the effects of the abuse and how we all dealt with it left 2 of us being very aware of abuse, possibly to the point (in my case) of hyper-vigilance, one sister in a state of confusion and one sister maintaining that everything was lovely.

As an adult I have worked with various charities and community groups all working with adults who had been abused as children.

One thing that is incredibly frustrating for anyone working in the field is that, over time, you become familiar with countless testimonies of people who were abused as children, under the noses of teachers, doctors and social workers and somehow, over the years, nobody ever noticed.

The other thing that becomes apparent is that there is no shortage of predatory child abusers. It is probably true that there are more abusers abusing within their own families than "stranger" abusers, however some of the "stranger" abusers are horrifically prolific in their abuse.

IME most people who work professionally with either abused children or adults who were abused as children inevitably are burdened with a loneliness arising from the knowledge of understanding that there is a hidden epidemic of abuse that many people would rather not be aware of.

Then we have a vile and hypocritical gutter press here in the UK that reports on child abuses cases in a sensationalist and salacious manner, avoiding any analysis of the complex and difficult issues involved and instead simply firing up mob hatred for "them" (child abusers / social workers / any other overworked stressed professional who can be scapegoated for a collective inability to think about the issue).

If you work in the field you soon start to feel as if a sizable minority of adults are involved in the sexual abuse of children.

The proclamations, from some quarters, that there is a media created panic about paedophiles and that the "stranger danger" message is an exaggerated response to a fictional problem, feels hurtful, insulting and misinformed.

The horrible truth is that is is impossible to accurately determine the prevalence of child abuse and child sexual abuse simply because;
  • it is hidden
  • children / adults abused as children find it difficult to talk about the abuse
  • children who do tell are sometimes disbelieved
  • it is difficult to comprehend and think about
  • professionals dealing with it are often inadequately trained / supported
  • some academics / clinicians (e.g. Valerie Sinason) are so attached to their own bizarre theories that they effectively bring their professions into disrepute, thus creating further impediments to victims of real abuse being believed.
  • sensationalist, salacious and completely insensitive press reporting
  • boundaries between abuse in the family and abuse by strangers are not always clear (e.g. some abusers pimp out their own children).
  • adult survivors of child abuse often make for unreliable witnesses
  • memory is not an exact thing and memories change over time


probably lots of other reasons too....

It seems to me that we can never know the prevalence of children sexually abused by people who are not members of their immediate family. We will never know, for example, the percentage of children abused by strangers as opposed to by members of their immediate families.

Is the subject one that generates immense salacious media excitement? Undoubtedly.

However it is unhelpful and very hurtful to people engaged in the difficult work of dealing with this stuff, to suggest that there is "exaggerated concern" or that the media response has been blown out of proportion.

As someone who was abused as a young child, I then went on to be targeted by flashers, perverts and child abusers throughout my childhood and into my adult life.

I know that this is not unusual. Once someone has been abused they can give off some kind of vibe that other abusers can detect and exploit. It is not uncommon for people who were abused sexually as kids by a parent, for example, to go on to be targeted by other abusers unrelated to that parent.

For many people who have had that kind of experience, the world seems to be teeming with predatory paedophiles and, in their world, it is.

Arguing about the prevalence of predatory paedophiles seems to be to be a pointless pursuit as nobody will ever have accurate data on the subject and our own subjective perspective will be coloured by our own experiences in life.

The most we can achieve is to accept that there are countless impediments to accurate research re this issue but to all do our best to think about the difficulties, to try to ensure that professionals in the field are adequately supported so they can do their jobs properly and to be sensitive to the fact that this is a horrific issue that needs to be handled with maturity and sensitivity.

I wonder whether the wish to reduce everything to quantifiable terms is a wish to be able to "know where the edges are" regarding a subject that is hard to quantify and "get a grip on"?
 
Louloubelle of all the people on this site, you are probably the poster I respect the most. For that reason I take anything you post very seriously. Also for the same reason, I find the prospect of debating with you the most daunting. Nevertheless there are points you make above that I do disagree with and it would be cowardly of me not to mention them.

You are right to point out that debate on this issue, as with the issue of trafficking, tends to polarise positions and I accept that I am as guilty of that as anyone. However. The issue here is whether the kind of public response to "stranger danger" that we have seen in Weymouth and the related demands for new legislation of the kind that newspapers such as the sun and News of the World have campaigned for, are based on a realistic and appropriate examination of the dangers of predatory sex criminals or are based on a simplistic "do something" message that is disproportionate to the actual threat. I take the view that it is the latter.

Noone, certainly not myself, is saying that there is no threat to children from strangers. I have said on this thread many times that that would be silly and irresponsible. What I am saying is that there is no increased or new threat that merits the introduction of new legislation or that can not be dealt with by the legislation now in place.

To this end then yes, calls for Sarah's law type legislation are knee jerk. They are based on an erroneous view that there is an increasing danger or threat "out there" that is somehow not being addressed by present legislation. I simply don't see that this is the case. Despite the claims to the contrary, there is no evidence that child abuse by strangers is increasing (in fact all the evidence suggests it is declining) There is no evidence that convicted sex offenders are re-offending in numbers that demand new legislation, in fact as I have shown, the evidence suggests that sex offenders have a lower recidivism rate than other criminals.
Finally there is absolutely no evidence that the introduction of the kind of public access to information legislation that is being advocated by those who support Sarah's law legislation, does anything to make our children safer. In fact the evidence suggests that it has a detremental effect as it drives sex offenders underground.
 
OTOH, our legislators then have to accept - which they undoubtedly will not - that the law will quite often be an ass.
Absolutely.
We see enough of this with the "mission creep" around all kinds of other legislation - anti-terrorist laws that are suddenly being used to justify snooping on people trying to get their kids into certain schools, for example, and there's plenty more where that came from.

So the prospect of a police force using a piece of legislation in a spirit it was never intended to be used isn't rare or unusual.
But still doesn't appear to occur to people that it'll happen until their nose gets rubbed in it. :(
Sure, we need laws to protect people from exploitation, sexually or otherwise, and they will - like most laws - be somewhat broad-brush and ambiguous in the boundary cases. The difference here is that laws around sexual activity around the boundary of age of consent are all wrapped up with ludicrous layers of hysteria and media-fuelled hype about it all, coupled with inaccurate stereotypes and unrepresentative claims which are then taken as representative.
You forgot "perceptions of normative morality which don't usually bear much relation to reality". :)
And that's what this thread's really about - the stupidity and wilful ignorance that underpins not only the way we make our new laws (Sarah's Law, FFS :rolleyes:) but the way we implement the ones we've already got.
We've got a clusterfuck of a criminal justice system, and one that has become far too infiltrated by politics and the (transitory IMO) needs and wishes of politicians to be able to reach even an approximation of "blind justice".
 
My opinion FWIW

The debate regarding the prevalence of predatory child abusers, like the debate regarding the prevalence of human trafficking for the purposes of forced / coerced prostitution, easily becomes polarised in such a way that intelligent debate and attempts at thinking often degenerate into emotive name calling people clinging on to their respective entrenched positions.

I'll just say a little bit about myself, here. I was abused as a child, not as terribly as some children were abused, but abused nonetheless. I do not want to go into details, but the issue of abuse divided my family, basically my brother and I were clear that we had been abused (and were were abused more than my sisters) whereas my 2 sisters decided that what happened was sort of abusive but not to the extent that my bro and I experienced it.

Obviously over the years people's perspectives changed a little, one of my sisters now acknowledges that we were abused, but my other sister refuses to think about the issue and starts to cry and get angry if anyone so much as tries to discuss the issue. Obviously it is cruel to try to make someone think about something that they cannot cope with so the subject is effectively off limits.

Now, my brother and me, we have an ability to sense / notice abuse to the point that it's frankly a bit of a burden.

If something nasty is happening somewhere I detect it almost instinctively, same with my brother. He is a senior social worker and one of the first things he achieved when he first started work as a social worker working with vulnerable street drinkers, was to expose an undercover ring of predatory child abusers in positions of authority who had been abusing children for decades.

My sister on the other hand, frankly people could be getting shot / kidnapped / raped under her very nose and she would remain cheerfully oblivious to what was going on. Her attention would be fixated on the beautiful blue of the sky or the prettiness of a bird in a tree. Everything is "lovely" in her world.

The point I want to make when talking about my family is that although we had the same parents, we all subjectively had different parents. Also, the effects of the abuse and how we all dealt with it left 2 of us being very aware of abuse, possibly to the point (in my case) of hyper-vigilance, one sister in a state of confusion and one sister maintaining that everything was lovely.

As an adult I have worked with various charities and community groups all working with adults who had been abused as children.

One thing that is incredibly frustrating for anyone working in the field is that, over time, you become familiar with countless testimonies of people who were abused as children, under the noses of teachers, doctors and social workers and somehow, over the years, nobody ever noticed.

The other thing that becomes apparent is that there is no shortage of predatory child abusers. It is probably true that there are more abusers abusing within their own families than "stranger" abusers, however some of the "stranger" abusers are horrifically prolific in their abuse.

IME most people who work professionally with either abused children or adults who were abused as children inevitably are burdened with a loneliness arising from the knowledge of understanding that there is a hidden epidemic of abuse that many people would rather not be aware of.

Then we have a vile and hypocritical gutter press here in the UK that reports on child abuses cases in a sensationalist and salacious manner, avoiding any analysis of the complex and difficult issues involved and instead simply firing up mob hatred for "them" (child abusers / social workers / any other overworked stressed professional who can be scapegoated for a collective inability to think about the issue).

If you work in the field you soon start to feel as if a sizable minority of adults are involved in the sexual abuse of children.

The proclamations, from some quarters, that there is a media created panic about paedophiles and that the "stranger danger" message is an exaggerated response to a fictional problem, feels hurtful, insulting and misinformed.

The horrible truth is that is is impossible to accurately determine the prevalence of child abuse and child sexual abuse simply because;
  • it is hidden
  • children / adults abused as children find it difficult to talk about the abuse
  • children who do tell are sometimes disbelieved
  • it is difficult to comprehend and think about
  • professionals dealing with it are often inadequately trained / supported
  • some academics / clinicians (e.g. Valerie Sinason) are so attached to their own bizarre theories that they effectively bring their professions into disrepute, thus creating further impediments to victims of real abuse being believed.
  • sensationalist, salacious and completely insensitive press reporting
  • boundaries between abuse in the family and abuse by strangers are not always clear (e.g. some abusers pimp out their own children).
  • adult survivors of child abuse often make for unreliable witnesses
  • memory is not an exact thing and memories change over time


probably lots of other reasons too....

It seems to me that we can never know the prevalence of children sexually abused by people who are not members of their immediate family. We will never know, for example, the percentage of children abused by strangers as opposed to by members of their immediate families.

Is the subject one that generates immense salacious media excitement? Undoubtedly.

However it is unhelpful and very hurtful to people engaged in the difficult work of dealing with this stuff, to suggest that there is "exaggerated concern" or that the media response has been blown out of proportion.

As someone who was abused as a young child, I then went on to be targeted by flashers, perverts and child abusers throughout my childhood and into my adult life.

I know that this is not unusual. Once someone has been abused they can give off some kind of vibe that other abusers can detect and exploit. It is not uncommon for people who were abused sexually as kids by a parent, for example, to go on to be targeted by other abusers unrelated to that parent.

For many people who have had that kind of experience, the world seems to be teeming with predatory paedophiles and, in their world, it is.

Arguing about the prevalence of predatory paedophiles seems to be to be a pointless pursuit as nobody will ever have accurate data on the subject and our own subjective perspective will be coloured by our own experiences in life.

The most we can achieve is to accept that there are countless impediments to accurate research re this issue but to all do our best to think about the difficulties, to try to ensure that professionals in the field are adequately supported so they can do their jobs properly and to be sensitive to the fact that this is a horrific issue that needs to be handled with maturity and sensitivity.

I wonder whether the wish to reduce everything to quantifiable terms is a wish to be able to "know where the edges are" regarding a subject that is hard to quantify and "get a grip on"?

Thanks for that rather excellent and moving post.
 
dylans

The respect is mutual and I always take your posts seriously.

I cannot comment on Sarah's law as I do not understand all the implications and lack time to research the issue with the rigour it deserves if I am to post from a position of knowing what I'm talking about.

I do feel, from my limited experience, that under our current situation many child abusers know how to "play the system" and continue to groom and abuse children even though they are supposedly the subject of supervision and monitoring while living in the community.

I do believe that the current situation should change, but am not advocating Sarah's Law. I suspect that I would share your concerns regarding vigilante attacks and general mob violence.

I just wanted to say something about the counterproductive nature of trying to argue a position based on statistics and research relating to prevalence as I think it is a serious distraction given that such research will only ever be provisional and incomplete.
 
Louloubelle I do believe that the current situation should change, but am not advocating Sarah's Law. I suspect that I would share your concerns regarding vigilante attacks and general mob violence.

I would be surprised if you were. Perhaps you could explain what exactly it is about present legislation that you think is lacking and what changes you think are needed.

I just wanted to say something about the counterproductive nature of trying to argue a position based on statistics and research relating to prevalence as I think it is a serious distraction given that such research will only ever be provisional and incomplete.
Ok fair enough but that just begs the question because statistics and research is all we have to base rational legislation on. Given the hysterical reaction that this issue continues to cause, the alternative is a position based on emotion and fear and that is no basis for any kind of legislation at all. If the awful experience of Megans law in the US has taught us anything it is that.
 
Outdated US statistics are no more relevant than people's personal accounts. Bunging up cod statistics because they are the only evidence you are prepared to accept, and then rejecting the validity of people's personal experiences as hysterical knee jerks, as you have done repeatedly in this thread, is not going to get you anywhere.

Louloubelle answered this point

Perhaps you could explain what exactly it is about present legislation that you think is lacking and what changes you think are needed.


when she said

I do feel, from my limited experience, that under our current situation many child abusers know how to "play the system" and continue to groom and abuse children even though they are supposedly the subject of supervision and monitoring while living in the community.

Are you just going to pore over another stack of stats from the US to answer that point, or just reject it out of hand because it isn't in a numerical form? You claim to be engaged in a rational argument but the only evidence you will accept is irrelevant or unobtainable.

And whoever rejected the existence of networks of paedos as being a construct of a media panic was talking nonsense. As stated, the Paedo Information Exchange and the American Man Boy Love Association predates any tabloid campaigns.
 
Outdated US statistics are no more relevant than people's personal accounts. Bunging up cod statistics because they are the only evidence you are prepared to accept,
That's simply not the case. I am prepared to look at any relevant evidence you wish to post. Unfortunately you haven;t posted a scrap.

In addition I don't think you, as someone who is in favour of public information disclosure legislation, can quite so simply dismiss the overwhelming evidence from the Megan's law experience that shows without any doubt that that legislation has made the situation worse not better.

For example what do you say to the fact that the present pedophile register has a 97% compliance rate compared to over 80% absconding from Megan? Of course you can simply dismiss that evidence but to do so is to dismiss the testimony of almost everyone concerned with the administration of that law.

Conducted by independent psychologists along with staff from the state Department of Corrections' Office of Policy and Planning, this comprehensive study looked at 21 years of sex offense rates. It confirms in New Jersey what other studies have found elsewhere. Megan's Law "has no demonstrable effect in reducing sexual re-offenses."
Megan's Law struck out on every important area related to protecting the community from sexual offenders. Not only is there no evidence that it reduces sexual re-offenses, Megan's Law fails to positively impact sex offender re-arrest rates, fails to change the type of re-offenses or first time offenses that occur and fails to reduce the number of victims involved in sexual offenses.

Now you can't dismiss that report (2009 by the way) as either out of date or as "cod statistics" (whatever that means) The fact remains the department of Corrections' Office of Policy and Planning, the body tasked with running the law, is saying it doesn't work.

Oh can you please explain what is out of date about that report?
http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2009/02/megans_law_doesnt_work_now_wha.html
 
That's simply not the case. I am prepared to look at any relevant evidence you wish to post. Unfortunately you haven;t posted a scrap.

In addition I don't think you, as someone who is in favour of public information disclosure legislation, can quite so simply dismiss the overwhelming evidence from the Megan's law experience that shows without any doubt that that legislation has made the situation worse not better.

For example what do you say to the fact that the present pedophile register has a 97% compliance rate compared to over 80% absconding from Megan? Of course you can simply dismiss that evidence but to do so is to dismiss the testimony of almost everyone concerned with the administration of that law.

In many cases, I can see that it makes sense to reject US figures as irrelevant to us here in the UK. But in a case where someone's arguing for the introduction of a law so similar to one which has already been introduced in recent memory, even if it was in the US, it seems idiotic not to look at the lessons learned in that earlier example, at least to see whether they might also apply here.

I might also introduce a third example - the "circles" experiments in Canada, which were, if anything, the opposite of the punitive, oppressive register-based approaches used in the US and proposed (by lowest-common-denominator tabloid newspapers) here. That experiment has yielded significant improvements, not only in reoffending rates, but in the perceived level of society's distress at abuse and its perpetrators.

We will continue to tie ourselves in moralistic knots no matter how tightly - and ineffectually -we ratchet up the pressure on abusers, because we actually appear to have quite a lot invested in the problem going on. The NoTW doesn't have campaigns against paedophiles for any reason other than to continue selling newspapers - why on earth would it want to promote measures that might actually solve the problem, when it can achieve so much more by using such ideas? And their ludicrous impracticability (sorry, _angel_, seven syllables there :oops:) means that, since they're guaranteed to fail, as they are in the US, there's plenty of opportunity for a "use a bigger hammer" followup campaign in a few years.

This all seems so obvious that I struggle to understand how people who presumably consider themselves capable of rational thought can look at the facts (ah, perhaps that's where I'm going wrong) and believe that these populist, knee jerk ideas are really going to solve anything other than the redtops' projected sales figures.


Now you can't dismiss that report (2009 by the way) as either out of date or as "cod statistics" (whatever that means) The fact remains the department of Corrections' Office of Policy and Planning, the body tasked with running the law, is saying it doesn't work.

Oh can you please explain what is out of date about that report?
http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2009/02/megans_law_doesnt_work_now_wha.html
I think you're confusing real facts with KennyFacts(tm) - "The Ones You Make Yourself"...
 
It's almost as if the folks shouting loudest about the "problem" are interested only in the vilification of sexual dysfunction and delinquency. They are certainly not interested in helping such folks, and nor do they have any real concern for the children (most likely already suffering abuse and neglect in the family) that get entrapped.

They would not for a moment allow laws that make normal teenage sexual activity illegal, if they were sane, and if they cared at all about children.
 
It's almost as if the folks shouting loudest about the "problem" are interested only in the vilification of sexual dysfunction and delinquency. They are certainly not interested in helping such folks, and nor do they have any real concern for the children (most likely already suffering abuse and neglect in the family) that get entrapped.

They would not for a moment allow laws that make normal teenage sexual activity illegal, if they were sane, and if they cared at all about children.
Careful now - three of us thinking similarly and agreeing on one thread...it can only be a matter of time before we're being accused of "ganging up" and "bullying".... :)
 
I'd rather hope it's only a matter of time before the "left" stops taking its lead on sexual politics from the Daily Mail.

Their complicity in these moral panics (including the "trafficking and prostitution" panic) has disgusted me.
 
It's actually rather easy to show that the misleading legal definitions (of "trafficking" and of "child pornography") written into UK law lead directly to hysterical pronouncements by politicians, and that these in turn ratchet up public anxiety.

That in turn paves the way for more oppression; this is what is meant by the term "moral panic" in this context.
 
You remind me of Jean Baudrillard, the French philosopher who argues that the 1991 Iraq war did not take place because it was a media event.

No he does not, you are once again spouting utter bollocks that you have picked up from the utter bollocks factory.
 
No he does not, you are once again spouting utter bollocks that you have picked up from the utter bollocks factory.

I made an extensive post on this earlier. It's interesting that our Kenny conveniently ignored it when it became apparent he had never actually read the essays in question. (although I must admit to feeling flattered that I remind our Kenny of Baudrillard. I only wish. :D)

Don't judge a book by it's cover Kenny
 
I would be surprised if you were. Perhaps you could explain what exactly it is about present legislation that you think is lacking and what changes you think are needed.

Some more about me

Back in the 1980s I worked as a counsellor in an NHS service delivering health care to sex workers.

While I only worked with female sex workers I attended a lot of meetings and conferences with all kinds of health care professionals and social workers.

I knew a couple of very caring gay men who were working at a children's home in Islington where they were extremely concerned about children being lured into the sex industry by pimps.

I should say that they also passed on to me, and the police, concerns about various staff in Islington children's homes and one man running a project for child sex workers (this man, now deceased, was considered a champion for the rights of abused young men), who my friends believed to be child abusers.

They asked me to visit the children's home to try to intervene in some way because some of the female children were being lured away by pimps.

I so wanted to help but did not have any magic answer. I visited and was able to access the children to health care and counselling services, but I could not compete with the pimps, who gave the girls money, drugs and mobile phones, all the things that the girls wanted.

It was at a time in history when children who sold sex were effectively criminalised and the men who used them for sex just got away with it.

The staff were besides themselves with anxiety and didn't know what to do.

It felt like we were in a situation where, no matter what was reported to the police, the police continued to arrest children as criminals whilst ignoring the abuse committed by adults in positions of trust.

Then, one day I got a phone call from one of my friends, he was crying his eyes out, as one the children they knew and had worked with, a young lad called Jason Swift, had been tortured to death by paedophile ring.

Sidney Cooke and his associates were tried and found guilty of manslaughter

You can read about it here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/465986.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Cooke

IMO people like Sidney Cooke, people who abduct and sexually torture children (or adults) should not be released from prison.

Cooke was released and he went on to ruin countless more lives before finally, far too late, he was imprisoned again. I hope he is never released.

I do not have the time to research the minutiae of legislation regarding this issue, however it seems to me completely insane that predatory sexual abusers who kidnap and sadistically sexually torture their victims (whether their victims are children or adults) are released from prison and then go on to sadistically assault more people. Predators who abduct and torture other people for their own sexual gratification are far too dangerous to be released.

edited to add

on a bit of a tangent I know

Last night I watched an incredibly gripping and depressing documentary that I would recommend to others to see

You can watch it here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00r06j5

I don't want to say too much about the subject matter, you just have to watch it and let it take you on a horrible journey.

The documentary is set in the US and Canada and I'm not recommending it because of any issues relating to specific legislation as their legal systems are different.

I'm recommending it because there are 2 people in the film, the baby's grandparents, who I realise that I completely relate to, simply in relation to that agonising feeling of helplessness that happens when you repeatedly try to go by the book, alert the proper authorities, try your best to protect the vulnerable and the innocent, and yet, the system lets you down so terribly that you consider committing atrocious acts as they are all that is left to do if the innocent are to be protected.

Just for clarification I am not seriously considering committing any atrocious acts, but I can relate completely to those kinds of thoughts as you consider all the options in an insane situation.
 
I knew a couple of very caring gay men who were working at a children's home in Islington where they were extremely concerned about children being lured into the sex industry by pimps.

I should say that they also passed on to me, and the police, concerns about various staff in Islington children's homes and one man running a project for child sex workers (this man, now deceased, was considered a champion for the rights of abused young men), who my friends believed to be child abusers.

They asked me to visit the children's home to try to intervene in some way because some of the female children were being lured away by pimps.

I so wanted to help but did not have any magic answer. I visited and was able to access the children to health care and counselling services, but I could not compete with the pimps, who gave the girls money, drugs and mobile phones, all the things that the girls wanted.

It was at a time in history when children who sold sex were effectively criminalised and the men who used them for sex just got away with it.

The staff were besides themselves with anxiety and didn't know what to do.

It felt like we were in a situation where, no matter what was reported to the police, the police continued to arrest children as criminals whilst ignoring the abuse committed by adults in positions of trust.

Then, one day I got a phone call from one of my friends, he was crying his eyes out, as one the children they knew and had worked with, a young lad called Jason Swift, had been tortured to death by paedophile ring.

Sidney Cooke and his associates were tried and found guilty of manslaughter

You can read about it here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/465986.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Cooke

IMO people like Sidney Cooke, people who abduct and sexually torture children (or adults) should not be released from prison.

Cooke was released and he went on to ruin countless more lives before finally, far too late, he was imprisoned again. I hope he is never released.

I do not have the time to research the minutiae of legislation regarding this issue, however it seems to me completely insane that predatory sexual abusers who kidnap and sadistically sexually torture their victims (whether their victims are children or adults) are released from prison and then go on to sadistically assault more people. Predators who abduct and torture other people for their own sexual gratification are far too dangerous to be released.


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The sentences handed down to dangerous paedophiles needs to change.
But it hasnt despite all the shite that comes out from the tabloids and also the people obsessed in saying its all media hype. Nothing much changes.
Some Sex offenders are truly prolific in their abuse and stiffer sentnences and new laws are needed. Ian Huntley should have been stopped years before the Soham murders accused by multiple women of raping them....When that happens the chance of it being mere co-incidence is far from likely. He should have been in prison at the time of the murder. There needs to be a law especially for sex offenders to be tried based on balance of probabilties.

Abuse in the home is a problem, but if people feel thats a problem that needs addressing it doesnt mean ignoring the problems of stranger danger.
 
Abuse in the home is a problem, but if people feel thats a problem that needs addressing it doesnt mean ignoring the problems of stranger danger.
eh? Do you feel it's a problem that needs addressing?

It's not one or the other, so it is dishonest of you to try to make out that properly nurturing children means ignoring the problems of stranger danger. It is the abused and neglected kids who are most likely to fall victim to sexual predators.

The chorus of sadists and law-and-order fetishists venting hatred does nothing at all to help those kids.
 
About Ian Huntley, I am not sure what actually could be done to prevent him, apart from actually managing to secure convictions for rape easier - he wasn't convicted was he??
 
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