Anti-paedophile demo - Weymouth

[Jonti]

I don't believe the wealthy filth who control and work in the media give us a true or useful picture of the world.

It's almost routine for anyone who's been involved in a news story to read the newspapers' accounts of events with incredulity. And often with resentment and anger as well.

Remember this ...

After Hillsborough, the tabloid newspaper the Sun published its infamous front page headlined ‘The Truth’, which claimed that drunken Liverpool fans had robbed the dead, urinated on corpses, attacked emergency service rescuers and all the rest of it. The paper is still understandably vilified for printing such lies. As one fan who was trapped at Hillsborough wrote to other papers at the time, he had indeed been pissed and vomited on in that cage – by crushed people in their death throes.rpool fans had robbed the dead, urinated on corpses, attacked emergency service rescuers and all the rest of it. The paper is still understandably vilified for printing such lies. As one fan who was trapped at Hillsborough wrote to other papers at the time, he had indeed been pissed and vomited on in that cage – by crushed people in their death throes.

source

 

[_angel_]

Just because tabloids print shit -yes they do - does not mean a) everyone reads it and b) everyone takes it seriously

It also doesn't follow that everything they print is automatically wrong every time either.

Broadsheets are also capable of manipulating the facts to suit their argument, too.

 

[dylans]

Do you believe there is no substance to anything the media report? How about the Haiti earthquake?

Good example. Charlie Brooker on Newswipe did a brilliant expose of the awful way the Haiti tragedy was reported. Stories of looting where none occurred. Stories that ignored the incredible community solidarity amongst people in favour of reports of unrest and violence Reporters siezing on isolated examples of violence in order to smear the Haitian people etc.

He shows an example of people collecting cardboard boxes and throwing them around in a clearly playful manner, an attempt at a little fun in the midst of all the horror. The report of the incident painted the participants as fighting over card boxes as though they were desperate animals. A close look at the footage showed clearly that the reported story was a complete distortion,

It's not that there is no substance to it, rather it is spun and packaged to suit an agenda and thrown back on itself as an image of reality that often bears little resemblence to real events

 

[dylans]

Just because tabloids print shit -yes they do - does not mean a) everyone reads it and b) everyone takes it seriously

It also doesn't follow that everything they print is automatically wrong every time either.

Broadsheets are also capable of manipulating the facts to suit their argument, too.

Oh yes. I have no particular bias against tabloids as opposed to broadsheets or TV media, the game is played all across the board

 

[ViolentPanda]

But that's the whole point, there are no "realistc policies" because it is a demonstration based on fear of mythical demons. The paedo in the park with a bag of sweets. Of course the abuse all around them, the very real issue of domestic abuse is completely ignored in favour of a tabloid inspired fear of strangers. The abuse isn't in the home.No, its out there, it's mysterious pedos surfing the web and hanging around the parks. Lets demand more CRBs. Lets demand something be done.

I'm not only talking about domestic sexual and physical abuse (which is where the vast majority of child abuse takes place) but also the mundane neglect of loveless relationships where children grow up feeling they are an unwanted burden.

I've lost count of the times I've collected my kid from school and passed miserable parents yelling at their kids to "get down, stop it, come ere, don't do that" Not the abuse that gets reported in the sun but miserable loveless lives nonetheless.

Abuse (sexual as well as physical and emotional) can come from home.
That, however, doesn't mean it doesn't emanate from other sites such as schools or from strangers.
I'm always annoyed by arguments that it must be A or B, because it is obvious that abuse can come from A and B.

BTW, surely surmising from the example of children being shouted at that they have "miserable loveless lives" is a bit of a stab in the dark?

I

 

[existentialist]

Not a very convincing argument. Google pitbull injuries and you will find stacks of horrific injuries. Rusty nails, nothing, this is despite tetanus.

Are you denying that pitbulls attack children. Or is it all a media scare and therefore untrue?

You know, what really. REALLY depresses me about the world and humanity is that sloppy, lazy thinking like this isn't even exceptional. It's so obviously and self-evidently wrong, but a) enough people think like that to create a kind of de facto majority ("so we're therefore right - we must be because there's more of us"), and b) a critical feature of such thinking is a total inability to step outside from within its own frame of reference, and see the flaws in it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Shoplifters don't usually arouse murderous rage in people.

They do on Urban.

 

[_angel_]

You know, what really. REALLY depresses me about the world and humanity is that sloppy, lazy thinking like this isn't even exceptional. It's so obviously and self-evidently wrong, but a) enough people think like that to create a kind of de facto majority ("so we're therefore right - we must be because there's more of us"), and b) a critical feature of such thinking is a total inability to step outside from within its own frame of reference, and see the flaws in it.

"I am so more intelligent than all of you" LOL!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe, and the most humane cure is suicide.

That's hardly a cure, more of a "solution".

 

[dylans]

Abuse (sexual as well as physical and emotional) can come from home.
That, however, doesn't mean it doesn't emanate from other sites such as schools or from strangers.
I'm always annoyed by arguments that it must be A or B, because it is obvious that abuse can come from A and B.

BTW, surely surmising from the example of children being shouted at that they have "miserable loveless lives" is a bit of a stab in the dark?

I

Abuse (sexual as well as physical and emotional abuse not only can come from home but usually does. There is no doubt that the overwhelming cases of child abuse are domestic. I am surprised you are even questioning this.
Of course I am not saying that sexual abuse from strangers never happens (that would be silly) only that the threat of "stranger danger is vastly overblown and has become akin to a moral panic.
I think if kids entire lives are spent being shouted at and made to feel unwanted burdens the chances of them being miserable is pretty high. I don't want to over emphasise this point. I simple used the example to demonstrate that while the "pedo makes a convenient hate figure, most abuse is more mundane.

 

[dylans]

I'm just pissed off that no one wants to join my rusty nail campaign for Dylans law. I suspect you are not taking this issue seriously

 

[ViolentPanda]

What leads you to make that assertion?

Quite a few large-scale surveys over the last 50-60 years from Kinsey onward back phil's position, IIRC (although we need to bear in mind that even though such surveys tend to be anonymous, there may be "reporter bias" taking place).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not sure that it is. Unfortunately people with these histories (of abuse) have a very high re-offending rate.

Also, I don't think this would render the abuser dead, any more likely than any publicity surrounding the conviction and jailing would already ensure.

However, if people deemed a danger to the public were kept in jail until they were no longer a danger, there'd be no need for any of this.

Unfortunately, we've got a pisspoor custodial treatment system for even those paedophiles who seek help. Most prisons offer SOTPs (sex offender treatment programmes), but they're mostly box-ticking exercises where inmates (often by rote) recite their crimes and profess to have seen the error of their ways. The only treatment programme that has any degree of success is the one in place at HMP Grendon, and Grendon is disliked by the establishment because it shows that with intensive (and costly) treatment, many repeat sexual offenders, including paedophiles, can be educated out of re-offending. They may never lose the urge to offend, but a fair amount do learn self-control and coping techniques.

It's the usual problem: Government won't commit to widening programmes like the one at Grendon. Not just because of the cost, but because it could be played in the media as the government being "soft on paedos", so warehousing them is all that will be done.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I used to know 2 psychotherapists who worked in prisons with predatory sex offenders for years

They did not share your view and were highly doubtful that the people they worked with could actually change.

Yep. The half-dozen I knew through my work pretty much treated their work for the Prison Service as either the foundation (via specific "clients") for an interesting paper, or a CV filler to show you had stamina and weren't easily nauseated.

I would be genuinely interested to read any credible literature that validates your claim of a 3% recidivism rate

Same here. I've found very no criminological literature that bears out such a figure, although it has occasionally been referred to anecdotally.
Perhaps I've been searching the wrong databases!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Source . http://www.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=BF0FA813-7607-4666-B1F081D6A6C701CC

Other studies have put the rate at around 11%. Either way, the actual figures give the lie to the often repeated claim that recidivism is extra ordinarily high for sex offenders. It isn't.

Recidivism rates are, it needs to be borne in mind, based on re-apprehension, so they're not necessarily the be-all and end-all in terms of re-offending.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Abuse (sexual as well as physical and emotional abuse not only can come from home but usually does. There is no doubt that the overwhelming cases of child abuse are domestic. I am surprised you are even questioning this.

I'm surprised you think I am questioning it, when what I'm actually saying is that YOU need to acknowledge that the home is not the only site. I've made no comment whatsoever about prevalence per site.

Of course I am not saying that sexual abuse from strangers never happens (that would be silly)

Yet what you've written over the last 15 pages does, in effect, make the point that abuse by strangers or away from the home doesn't matter in comparison to abuse at home.

only that the threat of "stranger danger" is vastly overblown and has become akin to a moral panic.

For which you're primarily blaming "the people" rather than the real culprits (the press, before you get on a high horse about me stigmatising paedophiles).

I think if kids entire lives are spent being shouted at and made to feel unwanted burdens the chances of them being miserable is pretty high.

Based on...?
I hate to be an old fart about asking for substantive support for claims, but sometimes anecdote isn't enough.

I don't want to over emphasise this point. I simple used the example to demonstrate that while the "pedo makes a convenient hate figure, most abuse is more mundane.

Of course it is, and possibly more insidious in some cases.

 

[Jonti]

It's not that it doesn't matter, VP. No-one has said that.

It's more that the huge fuss made about "danger stranger" (which is relatively easy to guard against) serves to obscure the real extent of child abuse in the family.

That's why folks who bang the drum for stranger danger are either being disingenuous, or manipulated.

 

[dylans]

I'm surprised you think I am questioning it, when what I'm actually saying is that YOU need to acknowledge that the home is not the only site. I've made no comment whatsoever about prevalence per site.

Fair enough. I do acknowledge that.

For which you're primarily blaming "the people" rather than the real culprits (the press, before you get on a high horse about me stigmatising paedophiles).

Hardly, seeing that I have just spent the past 5 pages pointiing to the media manipulation of events. I do think that the idiots who marched in the Weymouth demo are being manipulated. They are still idiots.

Of course it is, and possibly more insidious in some cases.

Well on this we can agree.

 

[existentialist]

You callous bastard. You vicious rusty nail loving scum. Denying the reality of the rusty nail crisis. Kids will have nails in their feet tonight because of YOU. I hope you can sleep at night Kenny. It's because of people like you that the rusty nail filth continue to maim and and, well, maim and maim OUR CHILDREN. Think of the children Kenny. Please, think of the children. SUPPORT DYLAN'S LAW

ICWYDT

 

[existentialist]

"I am so more intelligent than all of you" LOL!

Who said anything about "intelligence"? I think you may have betrayed a little subjective bias, there

 

[existentialist]

Yet what you've written over the last 15 pages does, in effect, make the point that abuse by strangers or away from the home doesn't matter in comparison to abuse at home.

TBF, what I think dylans has been doing here was to present the other side of the argument - we've had plenty enough of the "child murderers, hanging around our parks" folk devil, and what I took from dylans' posts was that stereotype isn't representative of the vast majority of abuse that takes place.

Depending on whose figures you look at, abuse of children is perpetrated somewhere between 75% and 85% by someone the child knows and trusts. But the tabloid picture is of "stranger danger", which is unrepresentative, misleading, and dangerous - because we're all looking the wrong way while the abuse goes on.

It's also a well-rehearsed point that demonising sexual abusers in the way that is invariably done by these populist outbursts makes it HARDER for victims of abuse to report the offence, and harder for them to come to terms with what has happened to them.

About the only people it does anything for are those looking for a useful stooge for their righteous anger.

 

[dylans]

ICWYDT

Are you suggesting that my campaign for Dylan's law and against the ravages of rusty nails is less than serious my good man?

 

[existentialist]

Are you suggesting that my campaign for Dylan's law and against the ravages of rusty nails is less than serious my good man?

Heh, no, I thought it was in the grand tradition of debating lunacy with parody. It seems to be working well.

 

[dylans]

Heh, no, I thought it was in the grand tradition of debating lunacy with parody. It seems to be working well.

Well I hope you will join me in my righteous campaign to end the filth, the vile scourge of rusty nails once and for all. Cynics and naysayers like Kenny and Angel may turn a blind eye to this tragedy but we, together, can nail it once and for all and put an end to the rusty nail crisis that is spreading across the nation.

 

[tbaldwin]

The issue becomes a moral panic when the response is disproportionate to the threat. Dangerous dogs act is a good example of a pointless and unnecessary law enacted on the back of a moral panic. Demands for more child abuse legislation are another.

There was no need for the dangerous dogs act and there is no need for Sarah's law.

Oh and er..pit bulls aren't really a problem either

Ignorance and arrogance a bad combination.

You talk arrogantly of moral panics. Like you know best its just the other less clever people being led by forces they dont understand.
Ignorant because you seem to ignore the fact that pitbulls and child molesters have a very real effect on too many lives.
Pit bull attacks maybe relativelly rare so are rapes. In fact if you look at the figures Pitbulls are more likely to bite someone than a man is to rape someone.
So perhaps we should all stop worrying about rape. Perhaps we are all being manipulated eh.......You stooopid stooopid ignorant twat.

People worry about things for a variety of reasons...and yes of course the media has an influence.......
But arrogant ignorant people like who dismiss so easily the concerns of others can spout of all you like but never influence anyone apart from the usual know it all brigade.

 

[dylans]

Ignorance and arrogance a bad combination.

You talk arrogantly of moral panics. Like you know best its just the other less clever people being led by forces they dont understand.
Ignorant because you seem to ignore the fact that pitbulls and child molesters have a very real effect on too many lives.
Pit bull attacks maybe relativelly rare so are rapes. In fact if you look at the figures Pitbulls are more likely to bite someone than a man is to rape someone.
So perhaps we should all stop worrying about rape. Perhaps we are all being manipulated eh.......You stooopid stooopid ignorant twat.

People worry about things for a variety of reasons...and yes of course the media has an influence.......
But arrogant ignorant people like who dismiss so easily the concerns of others can spout of all you like but never influence anyone apart from the usual know it all brigade.

Yeah. So what about those rusty nails?

 

[_angel_]

You know Dylan's it's not even what you're saying, but the way you're saying it that is doing no favours at all to your argument.

 

[dylans]

You know Dylan's it's not even what you're saying, but the way you're saying it that is doing no favours at all to your argument.

I know. Do you think I should swear more?

 

[Jonti]

I think that's unfair.

I don't think there was much evidence of people thinking seriously about the Government's sexual legislation (and the way operatives like Jacqui Smith have sought to drive it forward with disinformation and and manufactured moral panics), until a few of us decided enough was enough.

Not many have the stomach to be called rapists, for defending the rights of prostitutes, or to have our families called abusive, and our fathers called nonces, just because we point to abuse in the home as being vastly more significant than stranger danger.

That these things happen here, still, is not down to dylans.

 

[Blagsta]

you're delusional jonti