Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[rekil]

3 more bodies found at his apartment according to this.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It all has some relevance; but there's some piece of the puzzle that we're missing. The piece that causes someone to commit a horrific crime that almost never happens.

I'm sure you're right, but we should bare in mind that one of the pieces of the puzzle we will always be missing because it's pretty much ineffable, is human agency. The being a cunt factor that frogwoman alluded to earlier.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm sure you're right, but we should bare in mind that one of the pieces of the puzzle we will always be missing because it's pretty much ineffable, is human agency. The being a cunt factor that frogwoman alluded to earlier.

Bringing us back to the question I asked an earlier poster: he did what he did because he was evil?

Killing six people is something more than being a cunt.

 

[smmudge]

ABA is still about the best method there is for working with the behaviours of ASD pupils.
What part of what I posted do you think is outdated?
I've worked with ASD teens for quite a while and reinforcing positive behaviours repeatedly and very often works best. I'm talking about behavioural interventions...
Check out ABA techniques and behavioural management of ASD

I'm not talking about ABA. I mean some of your assertions, such as:

Common characteristics include lack of empathy

He will have had very limited understanding of relationships

Others really are not viewed as anything more than something that will give them something in exchange for showing positive behaviours

If you read accounts by people even with "low functioning" autism, you will find that many are very empathetic (and are in fact affected by emotion or 'atmosphere' to an intense degree), and greatly value relationships with others even though to non-autistic people they may come across as 'cold'. The issue is not a lack of feeling, but how it is differently expressed.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I'm not talking about ABA. I mean some of your assertions, such as:







If you read accounts by people even with "low functioning" autism, you will find that many are very empathetic (and are in fact affected by emotion or 'atmosphere' to an intense degree), and greatly value relationships with others even though to non-autistic people they may come across as 'cold'. The issue is not a lack of feeling, but how it is differently expressed.

Yes...but it's about their feelings. ..not necessarily someone else's.
Their sensitivity is to surroundings and environment and how it makes them feel..
I've worked with hundreds of ASD teens. ...their emotional internal lives can be in turmoil. Reaching them is extremely difficult because of this. But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that severe ASD effects relationships and that they do have difficulty empathising. They need to be taught how to empathise.
I wasn't saying they dont feel. Course they do. But they very often in my experience dont feel for others.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Bringing us back to the question I asked an earlier poster: he did what he did because he was evil?

Killing six people is something more than being a cunt.

I think people reject the term evil because of its religious connotations but this is a semantic quibble I guess. Evil or, as some might prefer, an incredibly extreme type of sadistic cunt.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Bear in mind I work with youths who have severe ASD . I've used music therapy with them over the years. ..
They react to highly emotional music...and respond to it. But I know that if I cry in front of them they will not ask me what's wrong or if I'm ok. There will be no reaction because it's not affecting them.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I admit I'm no expert - far from it - but is it helpful to generalise from such extreme cases?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Aspergers or no aspergers he just strikes me as a spoilt, self aggrandising little shit who couldn't get laid and decided to go on the rampage over it. I've just watched a couple of his videos and it's just pathetic. The sense of entitlement for women he has just oozes through the screen. It's almost a parody the way he comes across, like a cartoon version of Patrick Bateman but in reverse.

I don't think this is the first time a bloke has gone on the rampage over the inability to get laid either. I seem to remember a incident where a bloke shot three women at a gym, was arrested for it and he gave very similar reasons to this bloke.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Breaking news...

Bodies being pulled from gunman's apartment.

http://m.keyt.com/news/alleged-gunmans-apartment-now-a-crime-scene/26157468

Grim

 

[kittyP]

Bear in mind I work with youths who have severe ASD . I've used music therapy with them over the years. ..
They react to highly emotional music...and respond to it. But I know that if I cry in front of them they will not ask me what's wrong or if I'm ok. There will be no reaction because it's not affecting them.

I too have worked with teens with severe ASD for over 10 years.
I have been asked by many (of the ones who have verbal ability) what's wrong when I've reacted to something emotionally.
I'm not denying that it effects emotional understanding but everyone is very different and some people with ASD really surprise you with how much they get and pick up on how you're feeling.

 

[kittyP]

Aspergers or no aspergers he just strikes me as a spoilt, self aggrandising little shit who couldn't get laid and decided to go on the rampage over it. I've just watched a couple of his videos and it's just pathetic. The sense of entitlement for women he has just oozes through the screen. It's almost a parody the way he comes across, like a cartoon version of Patrick Bateman but in reverse.

I don't think this is the first time a bloke has gone on the rampage over the inability to get laid either. I seem to remember a incident where a bloke shot three women at a gym, was arrested for it and he gave very similar reasons to this bloke.

I think it's a complex mix of mental health/emotional disorder and cultural influences.

If I had to make a judgement and I'm not saying I'm 100% sure or anything but it snacks more of psychopathy than anything like ASD.
And apparently as far as I know, psychopathy is just that, a mix of hard wired stuff and experiences.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Breaking news...

Bodies being pulled from gunman's apartment.

http://m.keyt.com/news/alleged-gunmans-apartment-now-a-crime-scene/26157468

Grim

Grim indeed.

...and then I read the comments under that article... Oh noes White people kill too

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Yeah definitely comes across psychotic. Watch any of his videos it's all about 'boo hoo girls don't like me' mixed with cartoon like villainy but with a sinister undercurrent.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I too have worked with teens with severe ASD for over 10 years.
I have been asked by many (of the ones who have verbal ability) what's wrong when I've reacted to something emotionally.
I'm not denying that it effects emotional understanding but everyone is very different and some people with ASD really surprise you with how much they get and pick up on how you're feeling.

I'd agree with you that some do pick up on facial expressions and will react....it does depend on where they are on the AS..

 

[kittyP]

I'd agree with you that some do pick up on facial expressions and will react....it does depend on where they are on the AS..

I just don't think there is anything ASD like about how he comes over in those videos, personally.

 

[fishfinger]

Bringing us back to the question I asked an earlier poster: he did what he did because he was evil?

Killing six people is something more than being a cunt.

By suggesting he was evil, you are literally demonising him. He may have committed terrible acts, but he was a human being.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I think it's a complex mix of mental health/emotional disorder and cultural influences.

If I had to make a judgement and I'm not saying I'm 100% sure or anything but it snacks more of psychopathy than anything like ASD.
And apparently as far as I know, psychopathy is just that, a mix of hard wired stuff and experiences.

He's been diagnosed as having Asperghers though ...

I just don't think there is anything ASD like about how he comes over in those videos, personally.

Dont know.....it crossed my mind as I was watching the video that he might be on the AS .... I thought the rehearsed nature of his speech..the practiced laugh that doesnt change...The slightly archaic language (for a young person) and repetition of set piece phrases. The absence of more than two facial expressions.... It appeared to me as if he was parroting from material he'd put together. Everytime he used certain words together he did the same body movements. ..matching movement to words. ...


In the end I guess it wont matter to the victims or their families what caused him to carry out his actions. It is awfully sad and frightening that his parents had sought help for him and had gone so far as to call in the police to meet him and he still ended up killing so many people. Also, he should never have had access to guns..

 

[kittyP]

He's been diagnosed as having Asperghers though ...

Dont know.....it crossed my mind as I was watching the video that he might be on the AS .... I thought the rehearsed nature of his speech..the practiced laugh that doesnt change...The slightly archaic language (for a young person) and repetition of set piece phrases. The absence of more than two facial expressions.... It appeared to me as if he was parroting from material he'd put together. Everytime he used certain words together he did the same body movements. ..matching movement to words. ...

In the end I guess it wont matter to the victims or their families what caused him to carry out his actions. It is awfully sad and frightening that his parents had sought help for him and had gone so far as to call in the police to meet him and he still ended up killing so many people. Also, he should never have had access to guns..

Asd is commonly misdiagnosed and more so in the US than here.
I'm not saying I'm capable of diagnosing him though.
What I'm saying is that the ASD element of what's going on here is not a common or imho likely cause of what happened.
ASD can be comorbid with other conditions also.

I guess I'm saying that ASD doesn't make people killers.

And not he shouldn't have access to guns regardless of his condition.
Teenagers/young people are not know for their considered rational thinking.
Nor a lot of other aged people.

 

[Mikey77]

...and then I read the comments under that article... Oh noes White people kill too

Yep, lots of race stuff on other news sites as well. Someone called him a "kike" on that site. I didn't know he was Jewish.

 

[gabi]

What a selfish little cunt. Presumably he believed because his dad was a big shot in Hollywood and he had a fancy BMW he would automatically be fucking his brains out. Again.. Cunt. You can't blame his aspergers for this.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

. Evil or, as some might prefer, an incredibly extreme type of sadistic cunt.

I don't think they're necessarily the same thing. A sadistic cunt might be that way because of psychological compulsion etc. Evil is doing it out of free choice. Not having to do it; knowing it is wrong and simply wanting to do it.

Personally, I don't believe in evil; but then again, I don't believe in free will.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

is it helpful to generalise from such extreme cases?

I'd say the same thing about any generalizations made from the extreme case in the op.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

By suggesting he was evil, you are literally demonising him. He may have committed terrible acts, but he was a human being.

I'm not suggesting he was evil. I was asking those who talked about him choosing to do what he did, whether or not making such a choice constituted evil.

 

[fishfinger]

I'm not suggesting he was evil. I was asking those who talked about him choosing to do what he did, whether or not making such a choice constituted evil.

You're the person using the word "evil". No-one had even mentioned this before you suggested it. It is an unhelpful term, and only helps to dismiss the true horror, by making him out to be "other".

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You're the person using the word "evil". No-one had even mentioned this before you suggested it. It is an unhelpful term, and only helps to dismiss the true horror, by making him out to be "other".

No need to turn this into some sort of bunfight. Yes; I did mention evil, because imo, if one believes that people can simply be 'bad seeds' who choose to do bad things, then the logical conclusion of that line of thought, is the existence of evil.

 

[fishfinger]

No need to turn this into some sort of bunfight. Yes; I did mention evil, because imo, if one believes that people can simply be 'bad seeds' who choose to do bad things, then the logical conclusion of that line of thought, is the existence of evil.

I'm not the one trying to start a bunfight You are the person using an extremely loaded term to describe someone's actions, and dehumanise him in the process. You're doing it again, by creating the straw man "bad seeds".

 

[skyscraper101]

Mildly interesting fact, he was born in Lambeth and according to the Telegraph he attended a British public school at least for part of his childhood.

In the manifesto - which was passed to a local television station by an online acquaintance of Rodger - he listed the insults he felt he had suffered in life starting from his frustrations about his time as a boy at a British public school to his anger at his inability to find a girlfriend.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-Elliot-Rodger-suspected-of-killing-six.html

I'm guessing his Dad was one of the hundreds of Brits working in Hollywood.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm not the one trying to start a bunfight You are the person using an extremely loaded term to describe someone's actions, and dehumanise him in the process. You're doing it again, by creating the straw man "bad seeds".

Someone else suggested that some people are 'just cunts'.

Doesn't seem so different from 'bad seed'.

 

[skyscraper101]

Elliot Rodger's 140-page manifesto "My Twisted World" (picture of)