Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[Johnny Canuck3]

being a 'nutter' or mental illness too.

Would you agree, though, that since he committed a horrific crime that has only happened 120 times in the last 135 years in North and South America combined - that there might be something slightly out of the ordinary about him?

 

[skyscraper101]

Would you agree, though, that since he committed a horrific crime that has only happened 120 times in the last 135 years in North and South America combined - that there might be something slightly out of the ordinary about him?

Yes but it's not something that should be passed off without looking at the wider social context. Or else you'd have people claiming diminished responsibility through 'illness' based on statistics over medical evaluation.

 

[quimcunx]

attitudes towards mental illness are pretty shyt everywhere but in the US they're really not on the ball with it at all if you seek help you must be one of those nutters they warn you about on fox news. as im sure theyre probably doing in full right now over this

This is a ridiculous thing to say.

I'm no expert but I'm fairly confident there are quite a few psychiatrists, therapist etc making quite a good living in America from people who willingly go without any stigma from family and friends at all.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes but it's not something that should be passed off without looking at the wider social context. .

That might be a more useful exercise with more common crimes: like regular murder, assault etc.

Crimes of this magnitude and rarity almost seem to be an aberration from the human realm of experience.

edited to add: they might seem more common than they actually are, because of the media's thirst to make big profits by playing these things up in the most sensationalistic way for as long as possible.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Anyone ever read that book 'the game'? Probably the worst, sleaziest PUA fantasy shite I've ever read. Creepy doesn't even come close.

Yeah, but only a bit. Thought it would give me an interesting insight into that mentality. I couldn't stomach the way he thought about it all. Guess I should have got that from the title.

 

[laptop]

He's not alone in that belief.

Indeed, since the birth of the internets (usenet, pre-Web) I've seen USian men threatening retribution because their right to be attractive has somehow been denied.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

This story indicates that the shooter might be the son of one of the assistant directors of The Hunger Games.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/dead-drive-shooting-uc-santa-barbara-23853689

 

[frogwoman]

There is

Indeed, since the birth of the internets (usenet, pre-Web) I've seen USian men threatening retribution because their right to be attractive has somehow been denied.

Only in the us though?

 

[skyscraper101]

That might be a more useful exercise with more common crimes: like regular murder, assault etc.

Crimes of this magnitude and rarity almost seem to be an aberration from the human realm of experience.

edited to add: they might seem more common than they actually are, because of the media's thirst to make big profits by playing these things up in the most sensationalistic way for as long as possible.

That's pretty much the argument being laid by the defence team of James Eagan Holmes (of no known previous criminal history or diagnosed mental instability). Although there is some evidence to be argued here - not least as it might spare him the death penalty - it's tenuous at best and seems largely a vehicle to argue diminished responsibility. Unsurprisingly, the NSA et al. love this argument when the inevitable gun control debate fires up again.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

This story indicates that the shooter might be the son of one of the assistant directors of The Hunger Games.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/dead-drive-shooting-uc-santa-barbara-23853689

Ah, that explains everything....

 

[Yata]

This is a ridiculous thing to say.

I'm no expert but I'm fairly confident there are quite a few psychiatrists, therapist etc making quite a good living in America from people who willingly go without any stigma from family and friends at all.

do you think the amount of people who view seeing a therapist as a positive thing outnumber those who think they're quacks and their patients nutters? because i would say no but would love to be proved otherwise

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That's pretty much the argument being laid by the defence team of James Eagan Holmes (of no known previous criminal history or diagnosed mental instability). Although there is some evidence to be argued here - not least as it might spare him the death penalty - it's tenuous at best and seems largely a vehicle to argue diminished responsibility. Unsurprisingly, the NSA et al. love this argument when the inevitable gun control debate fires up again.

Huh: I came up with a theory also arrived at by that guy's high-powered legal team? Aw shucks.

Perhaps diminished responsibility applies here. Not that it matters, given that he's dead. But if he wasn't, there's no issue that he would be incarcerated, either in prison or a psychiatric facility, for life.

Perhaps the US might not end up executing him for that reason: but you're against the death penalty, aren't you?

As for what the NRA likes or doesn't like - that's irrelevant to the inherent soundness or unsoundness of an idea.

 

[quimcunx]

do you think the amount of people who view seeing a therapist as a positive thing outnumber those who think they're quacks and their patients nutters? because i would say no but would love to be proved otherwise

I think the massive generalisation you made about the US on the basis of anecdote was ridiculous. Therapy is a very well-established business in the US that does not go short of willing customers.

If anecdote matters I know someone in the US who had been seeing a psychiatrist for years. The only people who found that odd were the Brits on the site.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27561127

Parents were concerned about his behaviour.
He's described as having asperghers syndrome in this article

 

[goldenecitrone]

The theories are coming thick and fast now. A parent was assistant director on the Hunger Games, he had aspergher's syndrome, he liked listening to Phil Collins. What next?

 

[moochedit]

mirror saying he is the hunger games directors son as well..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/california-shooter-elliot-rodger-vowed-3603730

Before the horror on Friday at 9.30pm, Rodger – born in Lambeth, South London – had unleashed several tirades on “rejection, and unfulfilled desires”. Detectives are now sifting through more than 20 videos where the killer rants about women who have supposedly rejected his advances. Last month he tweeted: “Why are girls attracted to obnoxious, brutish men instead of sophisticated gentlemen such as myself? #girls #sex #unfair’.” He added: “Why do girls hate me?”
He also put odd diagrams about sex online and used a website for bitter, unlucky-in-love men. On Facebook, Rodger’s privileged life in Calabasas, California, could be seen through a series of photos, including him posing with his new BMW. In 2012 he was pictured on the red carpet at the Hunger Games premiere with his dad and French step-mum Soumaya Akaaboune.

weird diagram he drew...

 

[Dr_Herbz]

The theories are coming thick and fast now. A parent was assistant director on the Hunger Games, he had aspergher's syndrome, he liked listening to Phil Collins. What next?

BMW drivers are all murdering sociopaths... FACT!

 

[skyscraper101]

Perhaps the US might not end up executing him for that reason: but you're against the death penalty, aren't you?

For the record, yes.

 

[Blagsta]

The social context is clearly part and parcel of the explanation. We all exist in and are influenced by our personal and social context. He had aspergers, which was possibly a factor, but one that existed within his personal context of being a rich kid and the likely self entitlement that comes with that, placed in the wider social context of sexism and the pua stuff he was into. It's all relevant.

 

[Mikey77]

I get the impression this lad wanted a cheerleader type for a girlfriend and he hated them for choosing the football players over him.
His parents' wealth obviously dictated that those were the girls he deserved (in his mind), so why weren't they flocking to him with their legs spread wide?
He was under the impression that he was entitled to something he wasn't getting, which, as is fairly obvious, is something he wasn't used to, and he couldn't understand why it was happening to him, as he's probably gone through life getting everything he wanted.

It seems that this was part of it although many men seem to be affected by advertising images of women and the idea that there is some ideal partner out there. Maybe this guy with his film director father felt that all the more strongly. Is the word "disconnect" between these realities? I suppose the person with low self-esteem who does not have money and a family in showbiz can look to their lack of these things and focus on what can change. This guy had it all and so created a reality that women had it in for him.

I do think that the lack of male friends contributes to people like him losing healthy social contact and hence coming to view women as physical examples of beauty worthy of being on a pedestal. Hence his view of himself as being in a lower tier of attractiveness. He apparently did not have any male friends.

a few hours a month talking to a professional about his issues and not some loony pickup types and he might have had some sense talked into him.

i used to know someone who lived out there i remember once she told me her friend was feeling lonely and suicidal i suggested some kind of counselling and even googled some in the area he was in and it was like i had just labelled him norman bates she went off at me said all counsellors/therapists were scam artists and that he wasnt "crazy" he just needed some friends.
attitudes towards mental illness are pretty shyt everywhere but in the US they're really not on the ball with it at all

It's the other way around. They are more open to therapy without stigma. I disagree that therapists can necessarily do much for guys like him. In any case he doesn't seem to be a PUA type in that he doesn't mention even talking much to women. He laments that they "would have rejected him" but that is just creating a reality in your mind which as we all know often turns out to be true because you strongly believed it in the first place.

On the PUA thing. From experience I think it is a mixed bag of people with a lot of it generally being about self-help rather than PUA. Many guys improve themselves and get into relationships. Nothing wrong with that, but it will always be "PUA" because that's what sells.

PUAhate should be taken off the internet. It gives guys who are angry with women and hate themselves a place to go and rant about their warped view of the world. Kind of like those sites where people encourage each other to commit suicide. I am sure more of these things will happen in future and it would not surprise me if that site is involved again.

Lastly, I think there are common things about these shooters and their resentment towards the social groups around them. That is common to this case, Columbine, the Asian guy who compared himself to Jesus. The young man who murdered the school kids in Sandy Hook seemed to have similar resentments. But the media will just dismiss it all as mental illness. No constructive discussion.

 

[Mikey77]

The social context is clearly part and parcel of the explanation. We all exist in and are influenced by our personal and social context. He had aspergers, which was possibly a factor, but one that existed within his personal context of being a rich kid and the likely self entitlement that comes with that, placed in the wider social context of sexism and the pua stuff he was into. It's all relevant.

Although that is selective and there is a cause and effect issue with PUA. People have low self-esteem and not much social contact due to screwed up lives in the first place. As Johnny Canuck was saying earlier to frame this in the sexism / PUA being the cause is something we can't know.

 

[Blagsta]

Although that is selective and there is a cause and effect issue with PUA. People have low self-esteem and not much social contact due to screwed up lives in the first place. As Johnny Canuck was saying earlier to frame this in the sexism / PUA being the cause is something we can't know.

I didn't frame it as "the cause". It's clearly the context though. He had strong resentment and a strong sense of entitlement, going by the video, anyway.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The social context is clearly part and parcel of the explanation. We all exist in and are influenced by our personal and social context. He had aspergers, which was possibly a factor, but one that existed within his personal context of being a rich kid and the likely self entitlement that comes with that, placed in the wider social context of sexism and the pua stuff he was into. It's all relevant.

It all has some relevance; but there's some piece of the puzzle that we're missing. The piece that causes someone to commit a horrific crime that almost never happens.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

It all has some relevance; but there's some piece of the puzzle that we're missing. The piece that causes someone to commit a horrific crime that almost never happens.

Easy access to a gun?

 

[smmudge]

Just reading that this man had asperghers. ... I'm sure most will know that it is a complex brain disorder aligned to the autistic spectrum. Common characteristics include lack of empathy...very poor social skills and many more difficulties.
He will have had very limited understanding of relationships and how to engage with others. I work with autistic and asperghers teenagers. It is extremely difficult to lead them or train them to relate in a meaningful way with others. Others really are not viewed as anything more than something that will give them something in exchange for showing positive behaviours. ABA (Applied Behavioural Analysis) works to control their behaviours to a degree but it's always based on rewards and sanctions that you wouldn't need to constantly employ with a non autistic youth. It's an exhausting process that needs consistency and constancy from all persons that come in contact with the young person.
This is dreadful for the victims, their families and this young man's family. It's extremely sad.

Wow, if you really work with people with ASDs, then please, please do a bit more reading about it, and especially those many accounts by people who actually have ASD. Because your view of it is incredibly outdated. You know, like, 1940s outdated, describing it much like how Kanner himself saw it. Things have moved on a lot since then.

 

[Mikey77]

I didn't frame it as "the cause". It's clearly the context though. He had strong resentment and a strong sense of entitlement, going by the video, anyway.

Fair enough. I would say that there might be no evidence he was involved with PUA rather than the PUAhatesite, which is supposedly opposed to the PUA idea (I think). So the context might be just that one site, but see below.

It all has some relevance; but there's some piece of the puzzle that we're missing. The piece that causes someone to commit a horrific crime that almost never happens.

What about George Sodini in 2009. I remember hearing that PUAhate had a lot of forum posters praising this guy. No doubt Elliot Rodger had heard of him, was encouraged in his own distorted view of things on that forum and so on. This guy (Sodini) had attended a PUA conference at one point.

The internet makes weird shit happen, like guys meeting up where one wants to kill, and one wants to be killed and have his penis eaten (What you upto tomorrow Johnny?), young people bullying / trolling themselves then committing suicide, those with bulimia helping each other not to get better, etc. Are we not just seeing a similar online phenomenon with regards to.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Wow, if you really work with people with ASDs, then please, please do a bit more reading about it, and especially those many accounts by people who actually have ASD. Because your view of it is incredibly outdated. You know, like, 1940s outdated, describing it much like how Kanner himself saw it. Things have moved on a lot since then.

ABA is still about the best method there is for working with the behaviours of ASD pupils.
What part of what I posted do you think is outdated?
I've worked with ASD teens for quite a while and reinforcing positive behaviours repeatedly and very often works best. I'm talking about behavioural interventions...
Check out ABA techniques and behavioural management of ASD

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Wow, if you really work with people with ASDs, then please, please do a bit more reading about it, and especially those many accounts by people who actually have ASD. Because your view of it is incredibly outdated. You know, like, 1940s outdated, describing it much like how Kanner himself saw it. Things have moved on a lot since then.

Ps.i should probably say that I work with youths at the extreme end of the Autistic Spectrum. Teens with very extreme behaviours....for whom ABA is necessary...and I've spent years reading up on ASD and helping young people with ASD.
I'm always open to learning and have used every possible way I could to reach these young people. I've met Temple Grandin and others who have written about their ASD. I've used music therapy to reach the teens I work with very successfully. Dont think for a minute that my work is limited by a post on a thread...

 

[kittyP]

Very very sad.
I don't believe in good and evil though.
He was obviously mentally ill and in some ways a victim of circumstance and (has been already mentioned here) culture himself.
Very sad all round.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The theories are coming thick and fast now. A parent was assistant director on the Hunger Games, he had aspergher's syndrome, he liked listening to Phil Collins. What next?

maybe he was a lib dem?