Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[phildwyer]

If tiger-riding were an olympic sport (bear with me, here), and people got lots and lots of fulfillment out of it, and britain was really good at it, but every so often, say something like 0.001% of the tigers escaped and ate a bunch of people, would you really campaign for the right of people to keep tigers just for their enjoyment of that hobby?

I fucking would!

 

[spanglechick]

I fucking would!

yeah, you would.

 

[8ball]

fair enough. but if people were semi-regulalrly smuggling tigers out under their macintoshes and setting them loose in shopping centres and maternity hospitals?

Well, yeah, I could talk about maybe chipping the tigers at the compound where they are kept and having alarms etc. but that's just playing with the analogy - at some point it may be justifiable to curtail freedoms.

We let people drive cars under conditions where lives could be saved if we tightened up - not to say that capital doesn't have a big effect on that specific one but there are always going to be trade-offs re: freedom/comfort/safety.

I'd personally want to try pretty damn hard to find ways of avoiding banning anyone's hobby but where to draw any line if it came down to the only option would ideally be a decently democratic decision.

 

[likesfish]

Legal gun ownership in the uk
And illegal gun use are two diffrent things

My friend at sometimes may hold up to 10000 rounds of ammo entirely legally.
Criminals still have a real problem gaining ammo so its two completely diffrent problems.

 

[Idris2002]

Legal gun ownership in the uk
And illegal gun use are two diffrent things

My friend at sometimes may hold up to 10000 rounds of ammo entirely legally.
Criminals still have a real problem gaining ammo so its two completely diffrent problems.

That's a point against the US gun nuts, then, given that they harp on about how when guns are criminalized, only criminals will have guns.

Interestingly El Farago chose the present moment to announce that UKIP would like to legalise handguns.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

But you could get a different hobby.

If tiger-riding were an olympic sport (bear with me, here), and people got lots and lots of fulfillment out of it, and britain was really good at it, but every so often, say something like 0.001% of the tigers escaped and ate a bunch of people, would you really campaign for the right of people to keep tigers just for their enjoyment of that hobby?

Yes, I might. There's very little in the world that doesn't have risk. I used to go skiing and when you showed up they gave you a little speech that essentially said "if you're stupid enough to go up there, you take the risks that go with it." I don't mean to be harsh, but everyone knows what the guns laws are like in the US. By staying here people are accepting the risk.

(BTW, the scenario you describe above, it would be the tigers who were at most risk. It never ends well for escaped tigers. )

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

As I thought I'd made clear, I favour public safety every time.

I know this is a cultural difference, but .... sometimes you can make so many rules around public safety that it takes the joy out of living. You have to give the risk-takers some outlet or they'll find other ways to express it.

 

[spanglechick]

Yes, I might. There's very little in the world that doesn't have risk. I used to go skiing and when you showed up they gave you a little speech that essentially said "if you're stupid enough to go up there, you take the risks that go with it." I don't mean to be harsh, but everyone knows what the guns laws are like in the US. By staying here people are accepting the risk.

(BTW, the scenario you describe above, it would be the tigers who were at most risk. It never ends well for escaped tigers. )

If people don't like it they should emigrate? What about the people that aren't wealthy enough, or who have family, or who can't get a work permit anywhere else? At what point does the right to entertain oneself with a deadly weapon take second place to their safety?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If people don't like it they should emigrate? What about the people that aren't wealthy enough, or who have family, or who can't get a work permit anywhere else? At what point does the right to entertain oneself with a deadly weapon take second place to their safety?

They can move to a more restrictive state or lobby their lawmakers for a change in the law.

 

[spanglechick]

I know this is a cultural difference, but .... sometimes you can make so many rules around public safety that it takes the joy out of living. You have to give the risk-takers some outlet or they'll find other ways to express it.

There are lots of ways to have joy that don't involve guns. If you'd grown up in another country you'd have other hobbies and passtimes.

 

[Idris2002]

If people don't like it they should emigrate? What about the people that aren't wealthy enough, or who have family, or who can't get a work permit anywhere else? At what point does the right to entertain oneself with a deadly weapon take second place to their safety?

Well, this is it, after Dunblane UK could change its gun laws as part of the normal operation of the society and its political system, but the US situation is so different that the cultural revolution needed to stop cases like this would require a social and political revolution.

Which, ironically, would be unlikely to be peaceful.

 

[spanglechick]

They can lobby their lawmakers for a change in the law.

yup, right. that's the discussion we're having. and part of that discussion involves trying to have a debate that doesn't resolve down to "you can emigrate", no?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Well, this is it, after Dunblane UK could change its gun laws as part of the normal operation of the society and its political system, but the US situation is so different that the cultural revolution needed to stop cases like this would require a social and political revolution.

Which, ironically, would be unlikely to be peaceful.

^About sums it up.

If you tried to take the guns away from people you'd better be prepared for a really bloody fight. You can bet on the equivalent of a Waco or two every week.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

yup, right. that's the discussion we're having. and part of that discussion involves trying to have a debate that doesn't resolve down to "you can emigrate", no?

Its a basic premise of government going back to Greek Democracy that the governed accept the laws by staying in place.

 

[spanglechick]

Its a basic premise of government going back to Greek Democracy that the governed accept the laws by staying in place.

it's not democracy if people don't have a choice because of their lack of wealth. The greeks weren't too hot on that, either.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

There are lots of ways to have joy that don't involve guns. If you'd grown up in another country you'd have other hobbies and passtimes.

I can weave a passable basket, but there's a segment of the population that is genetically prone to risk-taking. You aren't going to appease them with basketweaving. I suspect, but can't prove that the US has a high proportion of those people. Its one reason our ADHD rates are so high. We've tried to take risk-takers and make them sit still in a classroom.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

it's not democracy if people don't have a choice because of their lack of wealth. The greeks weren't too hot on that, either.

I'd probably vote for more restrictive laws myself, but there's 300,000,000 million other people who say otherwise.

 

[spanglechick]

I'd probably vote for more restrictive laws myself, but there's 300,000,000 million other people who say otherwise.

that's 300 trillion people!

 

[Idris2002]

that's 300 trillion people!

YW contains multitudes.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

that's 300 trillion people!

Oh, stop playing. You know I mistyped 300 million.

 

[spanglechick]

Oh, stop playing. You know I mistyped 300 million.

 

[laptop]

I can weave a passable basket, but there's a segment of the population that is genetically prone to risk-taking. You aren't going to appease them with basketweaving.

What's wrong with:

• skiing;
• bunjee-jumping;
• playing chicken on the highway; and, if you really do live on the wrong side of the tracks,
• jumping freight trains?

Answer: they're very little threat to anyone else. Gun ownership isn't about risk-taking*; it's precisely about being a threat to others.

* In motivation, I mean: of course there are the stats saying that those who have a gun are more likely to get shot than those who don't; the motivation is precisely anti-statistical.

 

[kittyP]

Just thought I would drop this in here

Hand guns should be legalised and licensed, Nigel Farage has said

 

[spanglechick]

Just thought I would drop this in here

Hand guns should be legalised and licensed, Nigel Farage has said

he said it in january, but it's a timely reminder if any were needed, of both his twattishness, and of the sort of person who supports that view.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

What's wrong with:

• skiing;
• bunjee-jumping;
• playing chicken on the highway; and, if you really do live on the wrong side of the tracks,
• jumping freight trains?

Answer: they're very little threat to anyone else. Gun ownership isn't about risk-taking*; it's precisely about being a threat to others.

* In motivation, I mean: of course there are the stats saying that those who have a gun are more likely to get shot than those who don't; the motivation is precisely anti-statistical.

I've done most of those things. All of them have the small possibility that other people will be hurt. I've lost count of the number of times some green skier lost control and rammed into me. In any case, its not quite the same as that little bit of adrenaline that you get from a well-shot target.

As far as motives go, I think you're ascribing motives that aren't entirely accurate. (Perhaps its cultural?) Most people who own guns do it target shoot or hunt. The motivation is the feeling of competence that being accurate gives you. It's only a small minority who are screeching about killing intruders. They're louder than the sportsmen/sportswomen so they get more attention.

You just aren't going to get the guns out the US. The best you're going to be able to do is to rein in the worst abuses. (Personally, I'd like to see the manufacture of guns that can be keyed to the owner. They've had the technology for a long while to make a gun that won't shoot unless its unlocked with a finger print. )

 

[spanglechick]

I've done most of those things. All of them have the small possibility that other people will be hurt. I've lost count of the number of times some green skier lost control and rammed into me. In any case, its not quite the same as that little bit of adrenaline that you get from a well-shot target.

As far as motives go, I think you're ascribing motives that aren't entirely accurate. (Perhaps its cultural?) Most people who own guns do it target shoot or hunt. The motivation is the feeling of competence that being accurate gives you. It's only a small minority who are screeching about killing intruders. They're louder than the sportsmen/sportswomen so they get more attention.

longbow archery? darts? airguns?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

At what point does the right to entertain oneself with a deadly weapon take second place to their safety?

It's not about entertainment; it's about Americans having a constitutional right to own a gun - to protect themselves.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

longbow archery? darts? airguns?

Most modern archery equipment isn't much different to using a gun.

 

[spanglechick]

It's not about entertainment; it's about Americans having a constitutional right to own a gun - to protect themselves.

well you say that, but YW just argued the precise opposite. And of the three of us, she is the only american so i'll take her word for it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I made passing mention about Maya Angelou being a supporter of the right to bear arms in the RIP thread. I didn't know about it until I started reading articles following her death. Gun ownership seems to be quite intrinsic to American society.

Angelou told TIME magazine about her love for guns during a 2013 interview:
TIME: Your mother, she was your protector. She often carried a gun, she seemed very fond of guns. Did you inherit your mother's fondness for guns?
ANGELOU: Well, I do like to have guns around. I don't like to carry them. But if someone is going to come into my house, and I have not put out the welcome mat, I want to stop them.
TIME: Have you every fired a weapon?
ANGELOU: Of course!
TIME: At a person?
ANGELOU: I've fired it period, not at a person I hope. I was in my house in North Carolina. It was fall. I heard someone walking on the leaves. And somebody actually turned the knob, so I said, "Stand four feet back because I'm going to shoot now!" BOOM! BOOM! The police came by and said, "Ms. Angelou, the shots came from inside the house." I said, "Well, I don't know how that happened."

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/05/28/Maya-Angelou-Poet-Writer-Gun-Lover

The American support for gun ownership seems to cross political, social etc divisions.