Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[spanglechick]

Most modern archery equipment isn't much different to using a gun.

cool - so, you can do archery, handguns get banned and we'll see if any fucked-up twat tries to carry out a massacre with a longbow, shall we? i bet the number of kids accidentally getting shot goes down, too - cos it's a damn sight harder to fire a longbow with enough force to penetrate anything.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well you say that, but YW just argued the precise opposite. And of the three of us, she is the only american so i'll take her word for it.

I don't think the framers of the Constitution included the right to bear arms so that the '76ers would have a nice hobby back in the Adirondacks.

 

[spanglechick]

I don't think the framers of the Constitution included the right to bear arms so that the '76ers would have a nice hobby back in the Adirondacks.

possibly not - but we don't live in that world, we live in this one.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

possibly not - but we don't live in that world, we live in this one.

There are at least 18 Open Carry states in the US: is that so people will have a handy gun on their hip in case they get the urge to visit the local shooting range?

 

[spanglechick]

There are at least 18 Open Carry states in the US: is that so people will have a handy gun on their hip in case they get the urge to visit the local shooting range?

sure, but the world in which the constitution was written has moved on - as have the type of guns, and anyone using the 'right to bear arms' as a justification for doing so is going to need something more than 'this is what it was like back then' if their argument is going to hold any water.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

As far as motives go, I think you're ascribing motives that aren't entirely accurate. (Perhaps its cultural?) Most people who own guns do it target shoot or hunt. The motivation is the feeling of competence that being accurate gives you. It's only a small minority who are screeching about killing intruders. They're louder than the sportsmen/sportswomen so they get more attention.

If that was the case, why use anything more than a peashooter?
Why do people need a Desert Eagle for target practice?

 

[Buckaroo]

riding the tiger . thread

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

sure, but the world in which the constitution was written has moved on - as have the type of guns, and anyone using the 'right to bear arms' as a justification for doing so is going to need something more than 'this is what it was like back then' if their argument is going to hold any water.

There's a very lively, and very current debate in the US about Original Intent, and not just with respect to the Second Amendment right to bear arms.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

If that was the case, why use anything more than a peashooter?
Why do people need a Desert Eagle for target practice?

You forgotten a central feature of American culture: bigger is better.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

cool - so, you can do archery, handguns get banned and we'll see if any fucked-up twat tries to carry out a massacre with a longbow, shall we? i bet the number of kids accidentally getting shot goes down, too - cos it's a damn sight harder to fire a longbow with enough force to penetrate anything.

Depends on the poundage of the longbow. Back in the day, archers would pull as much as 150lb. bows. That's some pretty radical power.

 

[spanglechick]

Depends on the poundage of the longbow. Back in the day, archers would pull as much as 150lb. bows. That's some pretty radical power.

sure - but really hard for a four year old who finds their mum's longbow to put an arrow through their playdate, right?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I don't think the framers of the Constitution included the right to bear arms so that the '76ers would have a nice hobby back in the Adirondacks.

No, but they did understand the need to hunt for food. I think some the hunting ethic is embedded in the Constitution as well. In the old country hunting was something only certain classes could do. You'd be in deep shit if you hunted a deer on the Lord's land.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

sure - but really hard for a four year old who finds their mum's longbow to put an arrow through their playdate, right?

Yes, but you could solve that problem with a fingerprint locked gun. Even if a child got ahold of one, they wouldn't be able to fire it.

 

[weltweit]

I feel for the families of the victims, the family of the perpetrator, the perpetrator's councillors and mental health professionals.

I wonder because Elliot Rodger is dead will there be as rigorous an investigation as there would have been if he was taken alive into custody? I dare say there are aspects of mental healthcare that could learn from this, and I think California should reflect on their only checking for committals into mental health hospitals as ruling people out from buying guns.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I feel for the families of the victims, the family of the perpetrator, the perpetrator's councillors and mental health professionals.

I wonder because Elliot Rodger is dead will there be as rigorous an investigation as there would have been if he was taken alive into custody? I dare say there are aspects of mental healthcare that could learn from this, and I think California should reflect on their only checking for committals into mental health hospitals as ruling people out from buying guns.

This is a different issue than guns, but I broadly agree that our mental health system is messed up. During the Reagan era they closed most mental institutions and didn't fund the outpatient services they said they wanted instead. Its nearly impossible to get someone help in the US, especially if they don't want it. They have to threaten or actually hurt someone before anything is done. Then the only thing they do is arrest and prosecute the person. We've turned our prison system into a defacto mental health system. Its just as wrong as the abuses it was meant to replace.

 

[weltweit]

This is a different issue than guns, but I broadly agree that our mental health system is messed up. During the Reagan era they closed most mental institutions and didn't fund the outpatient services they said they wanted instead. Its nearly impossible to get someone help in the US, especially if they don't want it. They have to threaten or actually hurt someone before anything is done. Then the only thing they do is arrest and prosecute the person. We've turned our prison system into a defacto mental health system. Its just as wrong as the abuses it was meant to replace.

Interesting. It is better over here, but has been cut back quite a lot - too much - in recent years.

Fine you get a broken leg, you get instant help, but have a nervous breakdown and help, while it is there, is being reduced.

 

[Greebo]

sure - but really hard for a four year old who finds their mum's longbow to put an arrow through their playdate, right?

A practice bow for women and teenage beginners can still do quite a bit of damage (15 lb pull AFAIK) if pointed in the wrong direction eg completely missing the target. The same goes for the hunting crossbows (legal over there if you've got the right permit, not in the UK) - you just need to be able to work out how to load and shoot it.

 

[spanglechick]

A practice bow for women and teenage beginners can still do quite a bit of damage (15 lb pull AFAIK) if pointed in the wrong direction eg completely missing the target. The same goes for the hunting crossbows (legal over there if you've got the right permit, not in the UK) - you just need to be able to work out how to load and shoot it.

i didn't say they were harmless. I said it would be worth seeing if they caused fewer spree killings and i ventured that fewer small kids would accidentally kill their friends/siblings/selves.

 

[dylanredefined]

If that was the case, why use anything more than a peashooter?
Why do people need a Desert Eagle for target practice?

Because it is awesome. Well if you think guns are cool. It is really big makes a very loud bang and has high recoil. It is a huge lump of metal only good for frightening people if your a gangster. Or impressing other idiots on a range. It is an expensive man toy.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Interesting. It is better over here, but has been cut back quite a lot - too much - in recent years.

Fine you get a broken leg, you get instant help, but have a nervous breakdown and help, while it is there, is being reduced.

This is how bad it is:

In this environment, mentally ill inmates are particularly vulnerable, experts say. The proportion of inmates with a diagnosed mental illness has grown to 40 percent, from 20 percent (at Riker's Island), over the last eight years, according to the Correction Department. These inmates are responsible for about two-thirds of infractions at city jails, the department said.

The monotony, the isolation and the aggression of officers and inmates can worsen mental illness, causing inmates to lash out, said Dr. Bandy X. Lee, a professor of psychiatry at Yale University who specializes in violence at prisons and jails.

“Right now, jails and prisons are grappling with a population they are not prepared to deal with,” Dr. Lee said. “It is not so much a fault on the part of the correction system. They are simply not equipped and have not been able to adjust quickly enough.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/n...lence-at-vast-jail-on-rikers-island.html?_r=0

My bold.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Because it is awesome. Well if you think guns are cool. It is really big makes a very loud bang and has high recoil. It is a huge lump of metal only good for frightening people if your a gangster. Or impressing other idiots on a range. It is an expensive man toy.

Some would qualify as works of art:

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This is a different issue than guns, but I broadly agree that our mental health system is messed up. During the Reagan era they closed most mental institutions and didn't fund the outpatient services they said they wanted instead. Its nearly impossible to get someone help in the US, especially if they don't want it. They have to threaten or actually hurt someone before anything is done. Then the only thing they do is arrest and prosecute the person. We've turned our prison system into a defacto mental health system. Its just as wrong as the abuses it was meant to replace.

There's been a series about US mental health care in the Guardian recently - http://www.theguardian.com/world/series/us-mental-health-crisis

I have some personal experience of it, and even as somebody with a much better health insurance policy than average at the time I found it slow, confusing and pretty ineffective at much apart from spreading fees around. (That counts for a lot of healthcare on insurance mind you.) At least I did see one shrink who made me think "well at least I'm not as fucking nuts as this guy".

 

[weltweit]

This is how bad it is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/n...lence-at-vast-jail-on-rikers-island.html?_r=0
My bold.

Sure, what I can't understand is how so many Americans think our NHS funded by taxation and "free at the point of need" is somehow immoral.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Of course the system in the UK is hardly amazing either - http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/may/24/we-are-recreating-bedlam-mental-health-prisons-crisis

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Some would qualify as works of art:

Those nuclear holocausts look quite arty, too.

 

[weltweit]

Sure, what I can't understand is how so many Americans think our NHS funded by taxation and "free at the point of need" is somehow immoral.

Actually shame that we don't have lots of Americans on here as I wouldn't mind exploring that a bit.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Those nuclear holocausts look quite arty, too.

It does indeedy.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

At least I did see one shrink who made me think "well at least I'm not as fucking nuts as this guy".

I've yet to meet a shrink who wasn't absolutely barking (to borrow a phrase).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No, but they did understand the need to hunt for food. I think some the hunting ethic is embedded in the Constitution as well. In the old country hunting was something only certain classes could do. You'd be in deep shit if you hunted a deer on the Lord's land.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

[8ball]

Most modern archery equipment isn't much different to using a gun.

Really? I used to shoot a recurve, which was basically just a bow. No idea what they're up to these days, though. I've played Crysis 3 but I took the mechanics of the bow with something of a pinch of salt.