Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[smmudge]

I really don't see how not talking about his mental health issues is of any help to anyone's understanding.

I don't see how it has any explanatory value though. Anyone can become mentally ill - mental illness diagnoses are really just descriptors of certain patterns of thought and/or behaviour. They don't offer reasons for how or why these patterns came about (at least, those reasons aren't generally an essential part of the diagnoses). His thoughts and actions would have fit various definitions of mental illness, but that says nothing about mental illness and very little about why he did what he did.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't see how it has any explanatory value though. Anyone can become mentally ill - mental illness diagnoses are really just descriptors of certain patterns of thought and/or behaviour. They don't offer reasons for how or why these patterns came about (at least, those reasons aren't generally an essential part of the diagnoses). His thoughts and actions would have fit various definitions of mental illness, but that says nothing about mental illness and very little about why he did what he did.

Have you actually read any of my posts on this thread? Almost every one has involved a criticism of diagnosis and psychiatric classification.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't see how it has any explanatory value though. Anyone can become mentally ill - mental illness diagnoses are really just descriptors of certain patterns of thought and/or behaviour. They don't offer reasons for how or why these patterns came about (at least, those reasons aren't generally an essential part of the diagnoses). His thoughts and actions would have fit various definitions of mental illness, but that says nothing about mental illness and very little about why he did what he did.

Have you actually read any of my posts on this thread? Almost every one has involved a criticism of diagnosis and psychiatric classification.

fight! fight! fight!

 

[Red Cat]

fight! fight! fight!

 

[Dowie]

his pyschoanalysis looked at the relationship between sexuality (and its repression) and violence

Perhaps slightly worrying for countries like China and India going forward... 1.12:1 Males:Females leads to many millions of sexually frustrated young men destined to never marry.

 

[smmudge]

Have you actually read any of my posts on this thread? Almost every one has involved a criticism of diagnosis and psychiatric classification.

I'm not really commenting on the issue of psychiatric diagnoses and classification itself (not that that's never a problem) so I'm not sure why you brought that up, I'm saying the problem is when people think that what is being classified/identified is solely a cause rather than an effect.

 

[kittyP]

I'm not really commenting on the issue of psychiatric diagnoses and classification itself (not that that's never a problem) so I'm not sure why you brought that up, I'm saying the problem is when people think that what is being classified/identified is solely a cause rather than an effect.

Tbh I think your all kinda right.
I'm not just fence sitting.
Yes I think it's difficult to talk about it from a MH point of view. Especially being someone who has been diagnosed with a personality disorder myself.
But also to ignore that possible side of it is not looking at the full picture either.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You seem comfortable with glossing over the fact that he killed a whole bunch of people.

The issue under consideration was personal agency, about how quickly or easily people are able to change themselves.

The multiple horrific murders, the manifesto etc are an indication that this person had some pretty severe personality difficulties. The consequence of his severe difficulties, was a severe and horrific crime. So: how culpable was he for who and what he was?

Many if not most of us operate with some type of personality difficulties. I mentioned shyness, social anxiety, etc. Things that affect our lives, things that might hamper us from doing all the things we'd like to do. Difficulties that we'd rather not have.

The personality difficulties that most of us face, aren't severe enough to lead us to commit mass murder. And yet, as most of us can attest, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to rid ourselves of these difficulties. I think most of us can relate to how hard it is to do so.

I think inside, we know that the reason we find it difficult, isn't because we're dicks, or we're bad people etc. It's because it's so difficult to change who we are.

This person had personality/emotional difficulties much more severe than most of us will ever face - but we cast moral blame on him, because he didn't somehow do something to make himself different, to take a different direction, before he got to the murders.

If it's difficult for us to change, why would it not also be difficult for him?

 

[Dr Jon]

Perhaps slightly worrying for countries like China and India going forward... 1.12:1 Males:Females leads to many millions of sexually frustrated young men destined to never marry.

India certainly has big problems, not least with conservative (Victorian?) morality.
When I lived there, many internet cafés had private computer booths where customers could surf porn sites and bang one off. Not really a good source of guidance for forming loving relationships. I gather that there was a surge in sexual harassment (usually passed off as "eve teasing") and rape after internet access became commonly available.


I met Indian men who, having seen porn online, believed that western women were all nymphomaniacs who would have spontaneous sex with anyone.
They were most disappointed to learn that this was not true.

 

[laptop]

There is

Indeed, since the birth of the internets (usenet, pre-Web) I've seen USian men threatening retribution because their right to be attractive has somehow been denied.

Only in the us though?

Yes.

Initially, it might have been skewed by the larger number of USians with internet access. But I still think of it as a specifically US trope.

This is not to say that hatred of women is specific to or greater in the US - just a specific form of textual expression.

I still hypothesise that it's down to a combination of:

• Not understanding the phrase "pursuit of happiness" in the preamble to the Declaration of Independence;
• The advertising/Hollywood depiction of "success" as stemming from some inner quality of the character (oft expressed through posessions), not adaptation to the world;
• Individualism to the point of solipsism - there is no such thing as society to adapt to.

I had a peek at the last page of yer man's "manifesto". It's a perfect example. Especially the bit where he cannot understand that driving a BMW coupé doesn't get him laid.

Also, I haven't seen anyone comment on his racism...

 

[8ball]

The issue under consideration was personal agency, about how quickly or easily people are able to change themselves.

The multiple horrific murders, the manifesto etc are an indication that this person had some pretty severe personality difficulties. The consequence of his severe difficulties, was a severe and horrific crime. So: how culpable was he for who and what he was?

Not at all - it was all predetermined, remember?

 

[Belushi]

Also, I haven't seen anyone comment on his racism...

I don't think its particularly relevant to his actions tbh, though he undoubtedly was.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not at all

Then there's not much explained by calling him 'stupid', 'small', 'dick' etc.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Also, I haven't seen anyone comment on his racism...

He hated everybody who wasn't him.

 

[DotCommunist]

did he really do this because he couldn't get a shag?

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not really commenting on the issue of psychiatric diagnoses and classification itself (not that that's never a problem) so I'm not sure why you brought that up, I'm saying the problem is when people think that what is being classified/identified is solely a cause rather than an effect.

Yeh, but I don't think that, as my posts show. And if other people do think that, then perhaps that's because of the power of psychiatry to define mental illness through diagnosis and classification.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't think its particularly relevant to his actions tbh, though he undoubtedly was.

I think it's absolutely relevant! His worldview of others as untermensch is central to his actions.

 

[8ball]

Then there's not much explained by calling him 'stupid', 'small', 'dick' etc.

Well, can't be helped.

 

[HST]

I skimmed through the early parts of his manifesto. Too disturbing to read further. It seems he was storing up resentment from a very early age so it was only a matter of time. It happens all over the world.

 

[dylanredefined]

did he really do this because he couldn't get a shag?

Among other reasons.

 

[Garek]

This is what Elliot had to put up with in his college town. He commented on this video on Youtube. Must have driven him nuts.

Yes, misogynist terrorism is the fault of women

 

[laptop]

Facebook removes page glorifying Isla Vista killer
The social network has acted to remove the page about Elliot Rodger, a day after refusing to do so

only when contacted by the Guardian

 

[Buckaroo]

 

[likesfish]

The ironic thing is some girls have posted he looks cute
So he could have got a shag hopefully theres a net in the afterlife and somebody points that out to him before shoving back in the lake of fire

 

[Dowie]

I had a peek at the last page of yer man's "manifesto". It's a perfect example. Especially the bit where he cannot understand that driving a BMW coupé doesn't get him laid.

At face value it is a bit odd... the son of a Hollywood director, rich, driving a flashy car at a university in California... I'm not trying to suggest that everyone is superficial but there are enough superficial people out there that it does seem a bit unusual for someone like him to not to get laid given some aspects of US culture: obsession with fame, money etc..- its not like he's particularly unattractive or obese either -he must have come across as very very awkward socially. IIRC he was an aspie.

 

[DotCommunist]

something tells me the regard of a few fems on facebook was not going to stop this freak

 

[Dr_Herbz]

The ironic thing is some girls have posted he looks cute
So he could have got a shag hopefully theres a net in the afterlife and somebody points that out to him before shoving back in the lake of fire

I don't think he wanted a shag. I think he wanted an excuse to hate people. If he wanted a shag, he could easily have achieved that.

 

[smmudge]

What I find interesting is what gets highlighted from his manifesto/videos and what has been glossed over. Everyone is really keen to point out that he said he was awesome, magnificent, highly intelligent, destined for great things, he was a narcissist, obsessive, had a sense of entitlement etc. And also his anger, lots of anger. Not mentioned so much is the years of depression, repeated pattern of desperation / hope for change (including really far fetched plans, like putting all his faith in winning the lottery, spending hundreds of dollars on it and driving to a different state to buy a ticket) / falling back into despair; him saying he was worthless and useless at everything he tried. He had obviously planned it for a long time but says several times that he didn't "really" want to do it, and his awareness/clarity is often quite high. That's what struck me most about the manifesto actually - it didn't just read like the words of a cold-blooded psychopath (though some of it did, like him saying he wanted to kill his younger brother so he didn't "surpass" him), it was really contradictory.

 

[Mikey77]

Perhaps slightly worrying for countries like China and India going forward... 1.12:1 Males:Females leads to many millions of sexually frustrated young men destined to never marry.

Entitlement I suppose. The issue is how do you convince sexual beings that they are instead destined to a life of wanking while watching other men have all the fun. Perhaps it should be part of sex education.

I was listening to two women talking about their happy lives in Tesco as one of them had got married to an amazing guy. It just occurred to me that society is skewed against the non-entitled wanker. Why can he not legally marry his right arm (perhaps both arms), watch romantic films about wanking, or listen to love songs about knocking one out.

If we want sexual beings to be happy with being non-sexual we need to brainwash them from a young age and stop rubbing it in with images and stories of perfect couples and rampant casual sex.

 

[quimcunx]

At face value it is a bit odd... the son of a Hollywood director, rich, driving a flashy car at a university in California... I'm not trying to suggest that everyone is superficial but there are enough superficial people out there that it does seem a bit unusual for someone like him to not to get laid given some aspects of US culture: obsession with fame, money etc..- its not like he's particularly unattractive or obese either -he must have come across as very very awkward socially. IIRC he was an aspie.

He never attempted to approach any women at all at any time, as far as I can see. He smiled at two from his car once and when they didn't smile back he drove back and threw his coffee over them. He had nothing in the way of a friendship group so there was no opportunity to chat casually to women as part of a group. On the rare occasion he was part of such a group he spent his time sat apart from the conversation, angry about the obnoxious men who did have the confidence to chat to them and gain their attention. If his demeanour was anything like in his video I doubt approaching them would have helped.