Is there this need? Why is there this need?
Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)
- Thread starter TodayIsCaturday
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Is there this need? Why is there this need?
I'm not sure if this is what Smudge was getting at but when these relatively unusual violent events occur, it's "commonsense" to attribute some form of mental illness to the purpertrator. Mental illness being a pretty useless and vague term granted. But perhaps there's a need in attempting to explain why these things happen, to ascribe the enabling factor to some kind of psychological problem. Handwringing if you like.
And of course the "crazed killer" trope.
Anyway yeah, IMO that Youtube clip displays A monsterous mix of arrogance and confused insecurity. Objectifying and catogrising peple to some horrible status stratified world view. He proably thought anyone less rich than himself, less intelligent, fat, etc was an irrelevant loser too.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Going on rampage of murder is not normally the actions of a neurotypical person.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Well, sometimes needs must when a lynch mob can't be organised.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
.
Hence the PUA problem. They are fucked off with the good looking women not being interested in them, but they themselves are not interested in the women who are not "hot". On that basis how can anyone create a website to complain about women. Hypocritical to say the least.
The "entitlement" thing could be reduced to jealousy. But in a society where advertising, selfies, and college parties apparently rub other people's successes and social popularity in the faces of those who do not fit in and are insecure I think there is a case to say there is a kind of relative loneliness. In the same way there is relative poverty. Feminists seem to reduce it all to entitlement, but there is probably more to it.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I don't think they are interested in women as people at all.
smmudge
i know the smudge is true
"Neurotypical" isn't actually a recognised medical state. It's a term from the autistic community to describe people who don't have autism. I doubt very much that the only people who go on murder rampages are autistic.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Its sad but simple story
Rich kid has some sort autistic spectrum disorder has crap time at school
Heads off to college with fantasys of it being better obviously isnt.
Then discovers mens rights movement pick up artists bullshit.
Try's it fails massively because its bullshit.
Parents attempt to help but he's having none of it.
Becoming an alpha male is the answer
Final stage is the bloke can get a fire arm
Rich kid has some sort autistic spectrum disorder has crap time at school
Heads off to college with fantasys of it being better obviously isnt.
Then discovers mens rights movement pick up artists bullshit.
Try's it fails massively because its bullshit.
Parents attempt to help but he's having none of it.
Becoming an alpha male is the answer
Final stage is the bloke can get a fire arm
I didn't call for a ban on guns. I commented on how easy it was for him to get a gun, and expressed concern that a psychological evaluation isn't a prerequisite to obtaining a firearms license. After reading his 'memoirs', I stand by that comment.
Elliot Rodger said:
Do you honestly see nothing wrong with how easy it was for him to purchase a gun?
smmudge
i know the smudge is true
Same reason that people used to be locked up in asylums I guess, to easily police the boundaries between "normal" and "abnormal".
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Its sad but simple story
Rich kid has some sort autistic spectrum disorder has crap time at school
Heads off to college with fantasys of it being better obviously isnt.
Then discovers mens rights movement pick up artists bullshit.
Try's it fails massively because its bullshit.
Parents attempt to help but he's having none of it.
Becoming an alpha male is the answer
Final stage is the bloke can get a fire arm
Wouldn't surprise me if you're correct in every part of that, the only bit there that doesn't quite fit for me is the mad grandiosity and ego - which I've never seen in an autistic person, though I've not met all that many.
Well on entitlement and insecurity. We've all felt like the last turd in the bowl, not got the party invites, seen peple we think are morons having a better time of it, and as a self defence mechanism thought, well fuck you all. That's pretty normal. I imagine the ubicquity of social media doesn't help with that sort of thing. Interesting, perhaps in passing, his links to Hollywood via his father too. Life aint like the movies son.
But going from fairly typical feelings of alienation and insecurity, to constructing such a damaging world view, the PUA stuff etc, then on to mass murder. What happened there, that's obviously what's markedly different in his case. Yeah, sorry to state the bleading obvious, I know.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Then I misunderstood, I presumed you were calling for the more draconian approach that is common in the UK. But using this logic he should have had a psychological evaluation before he bought the knife too.
Oh there is plenty wrong with the US system (in some states) when it comes to the ease of availability of firearms.
But knives are mostly used for things like food preparation... Guns are predominantly used to shoot people.
Fuchs66
Ring a ding
Are you sure about that?
It's a shame he didn't get to read my forthcoming PUA book. "Initial impressions - how to impress the ladies by knocking the door like an alpha male."
I think you understate his level of isolation. I'm not sure the scenario you describe is quite the same as zero social contact and playing world of warcraft all day. This puppy was definitely an internet generation kid which I think makes it worse than it was for the likes of me back in the day. I just think the causes are varied, but I can never get into the ego of a privileged kid. He seems to have seen other successful kids all around him - and had his nose rubbed in it. I think social media will make this shit worse in the future for low self-esteem people.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, I think the internet must be a very double-edged sword in that sense - you can find like-minded friends so much more easily if you are a little different but there are so many more ways for the zombie hordes* to destroy you.
* - apologies to any offended 'corporeally challenged' individuals
Yeah, I think the internet must be a very double-edged sword in that sense - you can find like-minded friends so much more easily if you are a little different but there are so many more ways for the zombie hordes* to destroy you.
Oh, he still made a choice. As someone pointed out earlier his ego was at play so "friends" in a similar situation were not good enough. Also, people are making generalisations about the "pua" thing, which is also a diverse range of opinions, parts of which could be described as "self-help" for guys with low self esteem. Yet, this dick chose PUAHate - the one site that would have reflected all his most twisted shit back to him. He made a choice between positive and negative information.
On the point of social networking I suppose it is hard to get away from the image / idea of everyone partying and having a good time. That seems to be popular in the media as well as on social networking.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Something like 1 in 2 people have a mental health issue in their lives though. Linking this to mental health stuff is just going to stigmatise people more (and actually not encourage people to seek help).
I have been having a few more thoughts about this though. I think tthat what happened is that the guy got into this milieu where they were talking about this stuff all the time, these men's rights activists and similar, and I think misogynism is very easy to find on the Internet and in real life, ita very easy to have these attitudes reinforced, and this guy through his use of the internet and lack of exposure to any alternative views was having these MRA type misogynist views constantly reinforced in his head, nobody was telling him any different and indeed there were posts calling for more and more violence against women. You can find it on YouTube and often even on sites like here, you can find it in fan clubs of TV shows, you can even find women endorsing such views. Its very easy if you are wanting to be validated and have your views legitimised. Its like antisemites on scumfront, the more they spend over there the more everyone is telling them they are right, and there is a mutual reinforcement going on, and as someone's views get more and more extreme the less other people want to spend time with them or try to help them, so in the end their entire social circle is backing them up and all the experiences they have with these pick up lines etc seems to confirm what they already think, that women are evil etc. I think it is a lot more easy for this to happen with the Internet tbh.
I have been having a few more thoughts about this though. I think tthat what happened is that the guy got into this milieu where they were talking about this stuff all the time, these men's rights activists and similar, and I think misogynism is very easy to find on the Internet and in real life, ita very easy to have these attitudes reinforced, and this guy through his use of the internet and lack of exposure to any alternative views was having these MRA type misogynist views constantly reinforced in his head, nobody was telling him any different and indeed there were posts calling for more and more violence against women. You can find it on YouTube and often even on sites like here, you can find it in fan clubs of TV shows, you can even find women endorsing such views. Its very easy if you are wanting to be validated and have your views legitimised. Its like antisemites on scumfront, the more they spend over there the more everyone is telling them they are right, and there is a mutual reinforcement going on, and as someone's views get more and more extreme the less other people want to spend time with them or try to help them, so in the end their entire social circle is backing them up and all the experiences they have with these pick up lines etc seems to confirm what they already think, that women are evil etc. I think it is a lot more easy for this to happen with the Internet tbh.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
It's easy to think everyone is having a great time but I've found on things like Facebook (for example), if you count up responses, you find a small number of people reporting having a great time almost all the time <though there is a feeling of sick desperation behind it> and some others who say when they're having a great time but don't post so often.
I'd guess it's harder if you live in a place where it's expected that you should be having a great time *all* the time.
I'd not heard of PUAhate until your post - that's my third depressing discovery today.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
No one shares my opinions. I've been considering moving to a log cabin out in the woods in Canada. I'm currently trying to find one with a Batcave.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I don't really think that cause is served by not admitting any sort of link either though, especially when family members of the perpetrator appear to be complaining about how someone disturbed was allowed to buy guns.
Stigmas will be reinforced by the way sections of the press decide to talk about it. That will happen whether we discuss the stuff sensibly here or not.
I will throw in an additional concern, one for which I have no idea how valid it in the real world, if at all...
There is clearly a hierarchy of stigma and taboo when it comes to different mental health, developmental and personality disorders. Autism spectrum stuff, and bi-polar disorder, have seen far more positive progress in terms of awareness, education and stigma busting, than the likes of borderline personality disorder and schizoid spectrum disorders. I do not know if this phenomenon may occasionally leak into diagnosis, family acceptance/non-denial, treatment and intervention. i.e. that issues relating to stigma could lead to occasional misdiagnosis in favour of a condition that is viewed less negatively.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
We're all born into the world naked and without knowledge. Then, education, good or ill, begins. From parents, siblings, other kids, and from society at large - the pernicious paternalistic society that gives rise to PUA sites.
So the child becomes the adult he/she becomes as a product of all those influences. If a child grows into a macho, self absorbed twit, it was learned from something or someone.
So at what point does the child, born innocent, become worthy of being called a 'dick'?
So the child becomes the adult he/she becomes as a product of all those influences. If a child grows into a macho, self absorbed twit, it was learned from something or someone.
So at what point does the child, born innocent, become worthy of being called a 'dick'?
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