Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[kittyP]

This is impossible to resolve here in a sense that these people clearly do not think in the same way you or I do. But I would seriously consider the fact that he left a filmed speech and uploaded it on Youtube before his spree and deduce that his prime intention was to make as big an impression as possible with what he did. This is by no means just my opinion, by the way.

YouTube Video

I don't disagree with that.

 

[smmudge]

But..... there isn't.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

That's a mighty big article: how about just giving us a one or two paragraph explanation of the concept?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

By just a brief review, it appears to be an argument that likes a conclusion - that people are morally responsible - then fashions an argument to bolster the conclusion.

 

[smmudge]

That's a mighty big article: how about just giving us a one or two paragraph explanation of the concept?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Another thought: the free will vs determinism scenario is just a subset of a larger position: that the universe - all actions - are determined by their antecedents. Cause and effect.

So if the occasional human action is 'free', ie not determined by antecedents, then the same will apply to the rest of the universe and actions within it - meaning that uncaused events will occur from time to time in the physical world as well.

 

[Left]

Why is free will relevant to this, and how does compatibilism help, other than by providing an (unnecessary) excuse for punishment and retribution?
People are products of their environment, nothing more. To change people we need to change their environment. Treating people as isolated agents leads to individualism and just-world thinking. It doesn't matter whether someone is ultimately responsible for their actions - we treat them as such because we can't help doing otherwise.

 

[8ball]

So if the occasional human action is 'free', ie not determined by antecedents, then the same will apply to the rest of the universe and actions within it - meaning that uncaused events will occur from time to time in the physical world as well.

Like quantum fluctuations you mean?

 

[Mikey77]

Oh well, I spent too much time reading this shit. I'm surprised he tried socially. He mentions going to a party on his own, but looking awkward and leaving, then being pelted with eggs by some guys in a passing car. Kind of harsh that is.

His thing about not getting a retail job because he was an "intellectual, destined for greatness" is one messed up ego. He basically chose not to socialise with people in a workplace when he made that choice. I think tinternet is to blame. I had similar self-esteem issues, but didn't find any warped theory about women on tinternet, and tried to find hobbies apart from computer games.

As for previous point in the thread, he probably didn't pay for sex because he would have considerd it beneath him. He seemed to live in a place where he applied the perceived labels of what other thought of him to himself. This meant he would then have been a "loser".

Regarding the US media questioning the college culture - "frat boys" and parties and this kind of stuff. Why would they? If relative loneliness or depression is a legitimate thing to bring up then why not in every other aspect of life like business, or the workplace?

 

[8ball]

His thing about not getting a retail job because he was an "intellectual, destined for greatness" is one messed up ego.

And bizarre on the 'knowing your basic shit' front. I'd expect a good many intellectuals, destined for greatness, to spend a lot of time stacking shelves, pulling pints and pumping gas before recognition comes, if indeed it comes in their lifetime.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Like quantum fluctuations you mean?

It's my understanding that apparent randomness in quantum mechanical action has to do more with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle than it does with conclusive evidence for random action.

A couple of interesting discussions on this point:

http://philosophy.stackexchange.com...y-does-quantum-mechanics-disprove-determinism

http://philosophy.stackexchange.com...-or-understanding-invalidate-a-positive-claim

 

[purves grundy]

Another thought: the free will vs determinism scenario is just a subset of a larger position: that the universe - all actions - are determined by their antecedents. Cause and effect.

So if the occasional human action is 'free', ie not determined by antecedents, then the same will apply to the rest of the universe and actions within it - meaning that uncaused events will occur from time to time in the physical world as well.

Christ man - there's a time and a place to go metaphysical

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Christ man - there's a time and a place to go metaphysical

What's wrong with this time and place?

 

[purves grundy]

What's wrong with this time and place?

some people have just been shot and stabbed to death

 

[8ball]

It's my understanding that apparent randomness in quantum mechanical action has to do more with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle than it does with conclusive evidence for random action.

That would be mixing up fundamental limits to what can be measured with arguments about cause. Your first link sidesteps the question (understandably) and the second just restates that these limits exist. Neither of them can be applied to phenomena like radioactive decay - there you can tell when an atom has decayed at a classical level but you have fundamental problems deriving the cause of the classical event regardless of the precision of general models (see Schroedinger).

This is all incidental since in any case, I was just wondering if these were what you were talking about when you said 'uncaused events in the physical world'. And, as purves said, maybe one for another thread if you want to go into this in detail.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

some people have just been shot and stabbed to death

This thread isn't a commemorative thread for the victims; it's a discussion of what might have motivated this man to commit this terrible, highly unusual crime. Seems a very apropos place to mention metaphysics

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

but you have fundamental problems deriving the cause of the classical event regardless of the precision of general models .

Which is about uncertainty of measurement or lack of knowledge/proof, which is just what the second article deals with.

 

[8ball]

Which is about uncertainty of measurement or lack of knowledge/proof, which is just what the second article deals with.

I'm not sure you've understood either of them beyond pulling out a few key words, or my post, but if you want to start a thread go ahead - there are some posters on here who really know their shit with this stuff.

 

[smmudge]

Why is free will relevant to this, and how does compatibilism help, other than by providing an (unnecessary) excuse for punishment and retribution?
People are products of their environment, nothing more. To change people we need to change their environment. Treating people as isolated agents leads to individualism and just-world thinking. It doesn't matter whether someone is ultimately responsible for their actions - we treat them as such because we can't help doing otherwise.

I think the discussion around free will came about through questions of how much blame can be apportioned where. Can we say this guy is just a cunt, or does fault lie with society, culture, biology, neurology etc. too? Compatibilism is just fun to bring up when the inevitable free will vs determinism argument starts.

People are obviously an inherent part of one's environment. So to change people we need to change people? Well you can't argue with that can you.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm not sure you've understood either of them.

Is that my problem - or yours?

There have been umpteen threads about determinism: you can reference those if you wish. What's happening here is an attempted application of philosophical principles to an actual, real-life situation; as opposed to a discussion occurring in a vacuum.

 

[8ball]

I think the discussion around free will came about through questions of how much blame can be apportioned where. Can we say this guy is just a cunt, or does fault lie with society, culture, biology, neurology etc. too? Compatibilism is just fun to bring up when the inevitable free will vs determinism argument starts.

I don't find compatiblism much more convincing than the attempts to reconcile evolution with the Biblical creation account to be honest - it's main thing going for it is that it winds up those with entrenched views on both sides.

 

[8ball]

Is that my problem - or yours?

It's more of a general British politeness problem, really.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Free will is an illusion: a fiction perpetrated by the founders of religion [well, some religions, at least] to maintain control over the population.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's more of a general British politeness problem, really.

Is passive/aggressiveness being touted as politeness these days?

 

[8ball]

Is passive/aggressiveness being touted as politeness these days?

They are one and the same round here.

 

[elbows]

I think this is the real cause and saying that he has aspergers or is psychotic or something is not only offensive but allows us to avoid facing up to what is a serious problem here, it allows us to put this person in a box marked 'nutter' and forget society's role in making him what he is.

He's just a nutter, his decisions weren't at all shaped by the view that he's got a right to sex, or a culture of misogyny that makes those views acceptable. Its like the whole thing with rape jokes etc helping rapists to get away with it, because this culture helps to legitimize it and make rapists think they can just get away with it because these views are partially acceptable anyway. What about someone like Frazier Glenn Miller or George Zimmerman, do we just say they are mentally ill and that's that? There was plainly nothing wrong with them, the main issue is a society and social setting that legitimized racism and antisemitism and helped Zimmerman for example kill a black kid for walking past and get away with it, mental illness doesn't come in and if you pathologize stuff like this you just end up missing the bigger picture IMO.

I expect they all have Asperger's too.

Come on. We aren't competing to find a single explanation, we can discuss all of these things, its not an either/or choice.

It is not offensive to say he has aspergers, is psychotic or whatever, just so long as there is actually some evidence/diagnosis of this.

If we are worried about people sweeping stuff into neat boxes using labels, or avoiding facing up to things, we have to worry on all fronts. That means adding to the options/explanations without feeling the need to be dismissive of the other angles too. It all matters, the cultural aspects matter, but we really can discuss them and mental health/personality issues at the same time without doing either angle a disservice.

 

[smmudge]

It is a highly unusual event, and it is certainly interesting how mental illness is quickly jumped to as a probable cause when something like this happens. There is a need in society to constantly perceive mental illness as other and different, to make us forget that it is actually very common and banal. And when in fact, for someone who carries out these kinds of acts, it is neither necessary nor sufficient for them to also be mentally ill.

Free will is an illusion: a fiction perpetrated by the founders of religion [well, some religions, at least] to maintain control over the population.

Yeah well you can't blame those 'founders of religion', if they can't help it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah well you can't blame those 'founders of religion', if they can't help it.

Not blaming them; just stating an opinion of how the thing got started.

 

[8ball]

Not blaming them; just stating an opinion of how the thing got started.

You'd have more fun trying this one on a US right-libertarian website.

 

[elbows]

It is a highly unusual event, and it is certainly interesting how mental illness is quickly jumped to as a probable cause when something like this happens. There is a need in society to constantly perceive mental illness as other and different, to make us forget that it is actually very common and banal. And when in fact, for someone who carries out these kinds of acts, it is neither necessary nor sufficient for them to also be mentally ill.

Sure, people are going to start going on in vague terms about 'nutters' and 'psychos'. Thats not why mental health issues have come up here at this time though. It's because his family very quickly started talking about his Aspergers diagnosis and that he had been receiving psychiatric care.