Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[kittyP]

They might rape or do other shit though.

Yes I'm sure that does happen.

But I think, especially with young people who are very wrapped up in hormones and just starting to really learn about what it's like to live in an adult world, some end up with quite "wrong" and warped ideas about things. Even just for a while before they learn better ways of being.
I think more young people than we might care to admit have warped ideas and senses of entitlement at some point.
But in the majority don't act on it in a violent or abusive manner.

I'm not in anyway saying that I think mental illness is the sole cause of what happened here though.
I think it's a complex mix of things.

 

[SpineyNorman]

If you say x = y you need to know what x is.

Don't know how to delete quoted smileys on my phone.

This is a very strange way of disputing my claim and I really don't understand what you're on about. To say that he could not have chosen to act in any other way (which is precisely what JC3 is saying) is deterministic. You can say that outcomes are pre-determined - ie take a deterministic outlook - without identifying all the factors that led to said outcome. I'm surprised that you want to dispute this.

 

[kittyP]

.

 

[tbtommyb]

Sunday Times headline today: 'six dead in killer virgin's rampage'.

I guess his virginity is key, but still..

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm surprised we don't get more nuns and priests doing spree killings then.

(I'm aiming that at the headline, not you)

 

[8ball]

I get what you mean but why does an individual alone (as in not coerced or, Gah can't think of the right word, by others) step over in to the territory of such dehumanisation that they kill like this.
Other people I would imagine have elements of seeing other people as beaats/objects/etc but don't kill.

Loads of reasons as well as unknowns, I reckon. I think a lot of people are restrained by fear of consequences and for many the personal beef isn't great enough to go that far. And a lot of people don't have the sense of entitlement or the access to weapons etc.

Or having a conscience etc...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ah: now I get it - because he made a video about not getting laid, we are to assume that that's all there was to his personality. Because he said it was so, it is so.

As earlier stated: there are millions of men out there 'not getting laid'. The overwhelming majority of them do not go on killing rampages. It's certainly arguable that most people are able to handle life's tribulations, more or less, without killing others and themselves.

That doesn't mean that certain cultures don't "load the gun" somewhat, in terms of this sort of thing happening.

It's my opinion that the very small percentage of people who commit mass murder, have very deep and longstanding emotional/psychological problems that are most likely multidimensional. And one can't usually get to the bottom of their illness, simply by asking them what it is that's bugging them.

Asking them what's bugging them is the start of any attempt to address their issues, though.
One of the problems here is that this guy appears to have normalised his issues by becoming involved in a milieu where such issues were shared - classic reinforcement. Just that, apart from any personality disorder, is enough that his behaviour may (in light of his keeping company with a bunch of similar people) eventually have seemed entirely justified and normal to him. Add that to a relatively-easy availability of firearms and ammunition, and you have a horrible combination.
And we really can't divorce his mental health issues from the wider society he lived in, without missing the point of how those issues may have come about in the first palce and/or been exacerbated.

 

[kittyP]

Loads of reasons as well as unknowns, I reckon. I think a lot of people are restrained by fear of consequences and for many the personal beef isn't great enough to go that far. And a lot of people don't have the sense of entitlement or the access to weapons etc.

Or have a conscience etc...

Yes I guess it's that seeming lack of conscience that lead me to think about psychopathy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not all men, not all men, not all men...

Heaven forfend this even stray near a discussion of the culture that breeds the views he held, regardless of whether they lead to murder or not. Nope. We shall not speak of that. That is not pertinent here. Not at all. He was a troubled person. That's the end of the discussion. Not all men...

I love the smell of sarcasm in the early afternoon!

If we analyse this sorry tale from any perspective, then without both the wider national culture he was born into, or the more immediately-"local" culture he was reared in, his hate wouldn't necessarily have been focused in the direction it was. Anyone who removes culture from the equation is either ideological, or wilfully blind.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think it has everything to do with the "culture" he (and we) was brought up in, whether any mental problems played a role or not I can't say but I wouldn't be surprised. But the steering force behind what he did was definitely cultural IMO.

Some mental health issues can stem directly from cultural expectations. If you're born into a culture where "the good guy gets the girl", and you don't "get the girl", what message does that send to the individual?

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm tempted to cite Wilhelm Reich.

 

[Red Cat]

This is a very strange way of disputing my claim and I really don't understand what you're on about. To say that he could not have chosen to act in any other way (which is precisely what JC3 is saying) is deterministic. You can say that outcomes are pre-determined - ie take a deterministic outlook - without identifying all the factors that led to said outcome. I'm surprised that you want to dispute this.

Uhmmm, yes. It's a while since I posted the first post so I'm struggling to remember what I was thinking. Will post if it comes back to me. But ok, that seems fair enough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So basically this PUAhate place is where people who've been ripped off by the likes of Grant Shapps congregate?

And then, rather than reflecting on their own failings (ie. being the kind of sleazy twat who thinks being a 'pick up artist' is the route to healthy relationships with women) blame women both for their inability to get laid and the fact they were stupid enough to go to get ripped off by the likes of Grant Shapps?

Well, the problem is that culturally, most westerners aren't particularly reflexive. It's so much easier to place blame elesewhere than it is to place the blame on yourself, whether that's blame for allowing yourself to get ripped off by Michael Green, or blame for being a sleazy nerk.

 

[ViolentPanda]

PUA - pick-up artist. It's a thing. May or may not have ties in some cases to MRA (men's rights activists).

Not all men - it's also a thing. It's shorthand for a tired reaction that gets trundled out whenever women start talking about misogyny: "not all men do that!" as a way of not discussing the topic at hand and becoming defensive and deflecting the issue to something else. It's a common tactic, incredibly pervasive, and used as a way to shut down the debate. I used it here to illustrate the effect that diverting the subject away from a wider-ranging conversation about the culture that breeds his kind of mindset has.

It's also known as "doing a Johnny Vodka", at least to some of us on Urban.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't be a twat

There you go again, asking the impossible!

 

[fishfinger]

There you go again, asking the impossible!

I know, I'm far too demanding

 

[weepiper]

I expect they all have Asperger's too.

 

[poului]

View attachment 54512

I expect they all have Asperger's too.

Well, the press have given his pathetic speech more than enough publicity in the last 24 hours.

 

[8ball]

View attachment 54512

I expect they all have Asperger's too.

fuck me - where did you find that.

 

[Part 2]

Still getting through the manifesto here in between shopping. It does seem he had several obsessions throughout his childhood, seemed to set his sights too high and possibly felt a failure as a result. His obsession with having a girlfriend/relationship/sex appears very similar except the level of anger at being unable to get what he wants is off the scale. It strikes me that no woman could be 'perfect' enough for him.

 

[weepiper]

fuck me - where did you find that.

It's not hard. This shit is everywhere, which most women know but seems to pass most men by

 

[8ball]

It's not hard. This shit is everywhere, which most women know but seems to pass most men by.

Interesting that most women are frequenting these corners of the net while most men are oblivious.

At least that means it must be a very small minority of men making these posts.
Assuming it's men.

 

[Favelado]

I think they should send somone round to Dan Emorman's house pretty quickly. A chat about his plans for the future at the very least.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What a knobhead. Even I was barely getting laid at 22 years old. Kids today etc.

Why didn't he just pay for sex if it was THAT important to him. Rather that than plan out some 'annihilation' of the college girls he so lusted after. Seriously creepy fucker.

Paying for sex wouldn't have fitted his view of himself, and frankly I'm not convinced that his misogyny was based around being denied sex, as what he says could be taken to indicate that he wanted to control women (and, indeed, himself and other men), not just fuck those women.

 

[Red Cat]

Asking them what's bugging them is the start of any attempt to address their issues, though.

Is it? My experience of working with children with emotional difficulties is that they often don't know, they wouldn't be able to put it into words, and asking them so directly is likely to see them retreat further into their defences. They act out precisely because they don't know. My experience of myself as an adult is not dissimilar.

ETA: I know he wasn't a child but was talking about my work experience. I don't work with young adults.

 

[Fuchs66]

Some mental health issues can stem directly from cultural expectations. If you're born into a culture where "the good guy gets the girl", and you don't "get the girl", what message does that send to the individual?

Yes but isn't that a bit of a chicken and egg situation, do the cultural factors exacerbate underlying mental issues or are the mental issues a result of the cultural factors? Either way the result is similar.

 

[Red Cat]

It's not hard. This shit is everywhere, which most women know but seems to pass most men by

View attachment 54513

I don't know how to find this kind of online misogyny. I never encounter it unless it's posted here.

 

[weepiper]

I don't know how to find this kind of online misogyny. I never encounter it unless it's posted here.

I don't know what to say. It's all over twitter and facebook and I've encountered watered-down versions of it in real life too in pubs.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't know what to say. It's all over twitter and facebook and I've encountered watered-down versions of it in real life too in pubs.

I don't use twitter and facebook, in large part because of this kind of thing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But it is mental illness, though. No mentally healthy person would do something that would unequivocally destroy their own future. Especially in a premeditated way.

Inaccurate. In the few cases where people have carried out such crimes have a prior psych history, a minority of them have been judged "mentally healthy" prior to their destructive action. It's about other things beyond mental health - culture and belief, for example.