Another spoiled little man goes a US gun rampage (six people murdered in Santa Barbara)

[elbows]

Asd is commonly misdiagnosed and more so in the US than here.
I'm not saying I'm capable of diagnosing him though.
What I'm saying is that the ASD element of what's going on here is not a common or imho likely cause of what happened.
ASD can be comorbid with other conditions also.

I guess I'm saying that ASD doesn't make people killers.

Thats a sensible post that potentially offers some common ground for those who see this angle differently.

Especially the comorbid bit. U75 even had its own example, its most disliked/annoying/abused member on the autistic spectrum also having a potential diagnosis that involved being on the schizoid spectrum as well, and the schizoid illness also involved a mood disorder to boot.

All the good work done to reduce stigma towards mental health and personality issues should certainly be defended. Peoples own experience of knowing, working with etc people on the autistic spectrum, or being on it themselves, can and should affect their response. I think its counterproductive to take this too far though, no point completely avoiding acceptance of factors that resulted in rare, worst case scenarios involving hideous outcomes and murder. Especially as there is a tendency not to want explanations (seen as excuses) when people are at the stage of just wanting to feel hate and horror towards someone who has just taken the lives of multiple others. They don't want labels to be soiled with further prejudice, and they may want to put the murder in his own isolated category where he can safely be called an evil cunt without seeking to fully understand his behaviour.

Personally I have no trouble in accepting autisms potential role in setting up the conditions for this terrible end to his life and that of the victims. It provides the isolation and then other stuff, including other mental health and personality disorders, sends the perpetrator down a murderous path. Thats one possibility. Misdiagnosis provides another, although since many of the labels really don't relate to a clearly defined underlying cause/problem, but rather a set of symptoms, unpicking the misdiagnosis stuff may also lead to questioning our entire system of classification.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Apologies for the erratic font size.
Dont know why it posted large.

 

[Red Cat]

That's why there are community mental health services on the one hand and places like Rampton on the other. There's something called dual-diagnosis that can apply in various instances such as substance abuse and learning difficulties for example.

Surely the very notion of dual-diagnosis is medical.

 

[turing test]

for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Eagan_Holmes#Aurora_theater_shooting
oldy but a goody Theres a good song about C Whitman, but its not so cool anymore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
or .... There are better/worse ones

 

[smmudge]

Yes...it's difficult to diagnose early and can be misdiagnosed as psychosis.
<snip>

I just want you to know that my reluctance to engage with you further on this topic isn't because I agree with anything you say, but because I think you are trolling.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I just want you to know that my reluctance to engage with you further on this topic isn't because I agree with anything you say, but because I think you are trolling.

I'm not...and I'm sorry you feel that way. I've spent 15 years working with ASD teens and engaging with psychologists and psychiatristd in that area.... I am truly sorry you misinterpreted my post.there...I've seen kids with severe ASD wrongly misdiagnosed as having psychiatric illness.. That was all meant to say.

 

[Blagsta]

That's why there are community mental health services on the one hand and places like Rampton on the other. There's something called dual-diagnosis that can apply in various instances such as substance abuse and learning difficulties for example.

Rampton isn't specifically a dual diagnosis unit. It's a secure psychiatric hospital.

 

[Red Cat]

Misdiagnosis provides another, although since many of the labels really don't relate to a clearly defined underlying cause/problem, and rather a set of symptoms, unpicking the misdiagnosis stuff may also lead to questioning our entire system of classification.

Well, exactly.

btw I'm not saying that medical categories don't have their place, they can be very helpful, but they must be viewed critically as a classification system developed by a powerful group of people at a certain point in history, in a certain place, and representing certain interests. I really object to psychiatry's colonisation of ways of describing human experience that is extreme or disturbed as if it has an uncontested authority.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I'm a ms.

I'm not being a pedant, I'm curious about your view of how you would be able to detect mental illness. I'm not interested in legalistic notions of culpability.

Well obviously I can't detect mental illness from reading a text. One can detect culpability though because he obviously pre planned all of it. Coincidentally the other day I was reading about the port arthur massacre in Australia, that bloke had an IQ of around 66 but does that make one mentally ill? I don't think so. He was deemed culpable for his crimes and is currently in prison forever. Again, I don't think this bloke was necessarily 'ill' I just think he was a cunt.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Well, exactly.

btw I'm not saying that medical categories don't have their place, they can be very helpful, but they must be viewed critically as a classification system developed by a powerful group of people at a certain point in history, in a certain place, and representing certain interests. I really object to psychiatry's colonisation of ways of describing human experience that is extreme or disturbed as if it has an uncontested authority.

I agree with this and is partly my reasoning for being a bit flippant in this thread because it seems everything has to have a fucking diagnosis now.

 

[1%er]

Urban 75 where some prejudice is more equal than others

 

[Red Cat]

Urban 75 where some prejudice is more equal than others

What do you mean?

 

[Red Cat]

I agree with this and is partly my reasoning for being a bit flippant in this thread because it seems everything has to have a fucking diagnosis now.

But it doesn't have to be medical diagnosis vs being a cunt. There are ways of thinking about these things that don't have to be so polarised and simplistic.

 

[kittyP]

No evidence of psychosis in his video that I could see?

Yes being a psychopath and being psychotic are different things.
It is easy (unfortunately) to get them mixed up though.

 

[quiquaquo]

Rampton isn't specifically a dual diagnosis unit. It's a secure psychiatric hospital.

Read my post recopied below, where did I say it was a dual diagnosis unit?

"That's why there are community mental health services on the one hand and places like Rampton on the other. There's something called dual-diagnosis that can apply in various instances such as substance abuse and learning difficulties for example."

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I can't quote it but read the last paragraph or so about how women are beasts, don't deserve to have rights, are irrational and blah blah. These attitudes aren't particularly uncommon and some countries even govern on those principles. I wonder if he spent any time reading PUA material and forums? Those sort of attitudes are pretty rife there as well.

 

[quiquaquo]

Well, exactly.

btw I'm not saying that medical categories don't have their place, they can be very helpful, but they must be viewed critically as a classification system developed by a powerful group of people at a certain point in history, in a certain place, and representing certain interests. I really object to psychiatry's colonisation of ways of describing human experience that is extreme or disturbed as if it has an uncontested authority.

Indeed, overnight homosexuality stopped being a mental illness when they (the American Psychiatric Association) changed the DSM classifications back in the day. Never in the course of history have so many been cured in such a short time!

Then again there were others who did not want "transexuality" removed from DSM because it would change their US medical insurance status.

Of course their have to be classifications at some point but whether the APA should be deciding who is sane or not is probably not such a great idea.

 

[frogwoman]

The thing is that this bloke felt entitled to think that mass murder was an appropriate reaction for being rejected by women, there are far too many men (increasingly women as well with Joanna Dennehy being the most extreme case) who think that the opposite sex is their property and that they have a right to sex, you can even see it by posts by some men here ffs, you can see it with concepts like 'the friend zone " and shit like that, I think this is the real cause and saying that he has aspergers or is psychotic or something is not only offensive but allows us to avoid facing up to what is a serious problem here, it allows us to put this person in a box marked 'nutter' and forget society's role in making him what he is.

He's just a nutter, his decisions weren't at all shaped by the view that he's got a right to sex, or a culture of misogyny that makes those views acceptable. Its like the whole thing with rape jokes etc helping rapists to get away with it, because this culture helps to legitimize it and make rapists think they can just get away with it because these views are partially acceptable anyway. What about someone like Frazier Glenn Miller or George Zimmerman, do we just say they are mentally ill and that's that? There was plainly nothing wrong with them, the main issue is a society and social setting that legitimized racism and antisemitism and helped Zimmerman for example kill a black kid for walking past and get away with it, mental illness doesn't come in and if you pathologize stuff like this you just end up missing the bigger picture IMO.

 

[Blagsta]

Read my post recopied below, where did I say it was a dual diagnosis unit?

"That's why there are community mental health services on the one hand and places like Rampton on the other. There's something called dual-diagnosis that can apply in various instances such as substance abuse and learning difficulties for example."

In that case, I don't understand what point you were making. Sorry!

 

[frogwoman]

Pretty much everyone, at least one in two people have had a mental illness, saying it is down to this stigmatizes and makes it harder to talk about.

There have been people in this country like those people who kept an autistic guy prisoner and tortured him for years, plainly it was nothing to do with a culture of thinking that disabled and mentally ill people's lives are worth less, better find some label that explains it, means they can avoid facing up to what they did and lets everyone else think that its just an isolated incident

 

[Blagsta]

Well obviously I can't detect mental illness from reading a text. One can detect culpability though because he obviously pre planned all of it. Coincidentally the other day I was reading about the port arthur massacre in Australia, that bloke had an IQ of around 66 but does that make one mentally ill? I don't think so. He was deemed culpable for his crimes and is currently in prison forever. Again, I don't think this bloke was necessarily 'ill' I just think he was a cunt.

IQ of 66 is classified as mild learning disability, not mental illness. Learning disability and mental illness are different.

 

[Left]

I can't quote it but read the last paragraph or so about how women are beasts, don't deserve to have rights, are irrational and blah blah. These attitudes aren't particularly uncommon and some countries even govern on those principles. I wonder if he spent any time reading PUA material and forums? Those sort of attitudes are pretty rife there as well.

He did.
I place the blame for these deaths squarely on the manosophere. Check out the sense of entitlement on this:

Women don’t deserve rights. They are evil, sadistic beasts who whore themselves out to degenerate men and ignore the men who actually deserve them.
I’m tired of seeing losers with hot chicks Seriously, today at my college I saw this short, ugly Indian guy driving a Honda civic, and he had a hot blonde girl in his passenger seat. What on earth is up with that?!?!? I would climb mount Everest 10 times just to have a girl like that with me. I drive a BMW coupe and I’ve struggled all my life to get a girlfriend. What’s wrong with this world? Does anyone else get disturbed and offended when you see sights like this? Someone make sense of this ridiculousness.
Well, it makes a good point. It’s been my life struggle to get a beautiful, white girl; while that guy seemed to get one to hang out with him easily, despite having a worse car and being less white than me. I deserve her more. She should be in my passenger seat.

This is typical stuff of the genre, and has absolutely fuck all to do with asperger's.

...

I need to stop reading comments threads on news sites, it's so fucking enraging. Here's a story about a 19 year old student who committed suicide after being harassed for doing porn. The comments are about how stupid she was to do porn, how it's just the internet and she should have got over it, how people are too weak this days. Why are people so fucking terrible?

 

[frogwoman]

Plainly all the killing going on in Ukraine, that's all mental illness related as well. Great, means we don't have to think about anything. IDS = mentally ill. Bush and Blair = mentally ill. Cameron = mentally ill. Wow I wish Id known that before.

 

[kittyP]

Pretty much everyone, at least one in two people have had a mental illness, saying it is down to this stigmatizes and makes it harder to talk about.

There have been people in this country like those people who kept an autistic guy prisoner and tortured him for years, plainly it was nothing to do with a culture of thinking that disabled and mentally ill people's lives are worth less, better find some label that explains it, means they can avoid facing up to what they did and lets everyone else think that its just an isolated incident

I don't think mental illness in this case has absolutely nothing to do with but nor do I think that it's the whole picture.
Unfortunately quite a lot of people have that horrible sense of entitlement and misogyny about them but what makes some people take it that step further and kill over it?

Also I take your point about what's going on in Ukraine but as society we do view going out on loan killing sprees very differently to say war or social uprising in groups.
Whether or not you think they are similar or not is a different matter.

 

[8ball]

Unfortunately quite a lot of people have that horrible sense of entitlement and misogyny about them but what makes some people take it that step further and kill over it?.

Getting people to see other people as objects/property/'beasts' is the main and most powerful tool used to get 'normal' people to commit atrocities. Mental illnesses or conditions are not necessary, just that basic dehumanisation and self-righteous anger.

 

[frogwoman]

Getting people to see other people as objects/property/'beasts' is the main and most powerful tool used to get 'normal' people to commit atrocities. Mental illnesses or conditions are not necessary, just that basic dehumanisation and self-righteous anger.

Exactly.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Your formulation implies that we know all the determining factors. I don't know if johnny believes that to be the case.

No it doesn't

 

[kittyP]

Getting people to see other people as objects/property/'beasts' is the main and most powerful tool used to get 'normal' people to commit atrocities. Mental illnesses or conditions are not necessary, just that basic dehumanisation and self-righteous anger.

I get what you mean but why does an individual alone (as in not coerced or, Gah can't think of the right word, by others) step over in to the territory of such dehumanisation that they kill like this.
Other people I would imagine have elements of seeing other people as beaats/objects/etc but don't kill.

 

[frogwoman]

I get what you mean but why does an individual alone (as in not coerced or, Gah can't think of the right word, by others) step over in to the territory of such dehumanisation that they kill like this.
Other people I would imagine have elements of seeing other people as beaats/objects/etc but don't kill.

They might rape or do other shit though.

 

[Red Cat]

No it doesn't

If you say x = y you need to know what x is.

Don't know how to delete quoted smileys on my phone.