Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[2hats]

It's also entirely possible for something to go wrong and quickly result in a completely vertical path

If hit by a missile and maintaining some level of structural integrity and thus a degree of aerodynamics, controlled or otherwise, it can end up anywhere from 0 to several tens of km from the location of the initial event (see KAL 007 which ended up impacting the ocean some 50 km from the point of shoot down, though with some degree of flight integrity it is of course possible for the vehicle to return to the vicinity of the triggering event, intentionally or otherwise).

If the aircraft breaks up and the dynamics swiftly become purely ballistic (with rapidly increasing drag) then it will end up close to the location of the original event (see PA103 the bulk of which impacted some 3-4km from the event nadir point, with lighter material from within the cabin increasingly distributed downwind to distances of 100 km by the prevailing jet stream).

 

[quiquaquo]

The Korean jet shot down by the Soviets back in the day flew on after being hit by missiles, there are back up control systems that take over.

 

[dylanredefined]

So who fired? The Russians?

The separatists.

 

[goldenecitrone]

The separatists.

Supplied by Putin, fired by the terrorists in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[1%er]

The separatists.

The Freemasons

 

[mauvais]

The Korean jet shot down by the Soviets back in the day flew on after being hit by missiles, there are back up control systems that take over.

Backup what, wings? It flew on because it wasn't completely fucked yet.

 

[pocketscience]

If hit by a missile and maintaining some level of structural integrity and thus a degree of aerodynamics, controlled or otherwise, it can end up anywhere from 0 to several tens of km from the location of the initial event (see KAL 007 which ended up impacting the ocean some 50 km from the point of shoot down, though with some degree of flight integrity it is of course possible for the vehicle to return to the vicinity of the triggering event, intentionally or otherwise).

If the aircraft breaks up and the dynamics swiftly become purely ballistic (with rapidly increasing drag) then it will end up close to the location of the original event (see PA103 the bulk of which impacted some 3-4km from the event nadir point, with lighter material from within the cabin increasingly distributed downwind to distances of 100 km by the prevailing jet stream).

If the tail cone took a hit which resulted in the horizontal stabilizers being jammed to max while the engines were still providing cruse thrust, would it loop the loop till it ran out of avgas?

 

[quiquaquo]

Backup what, wings? It flew on because it wasn't completely fucked yet.

Control systems, the Jumbo has three levels of back up, one still was working. Eventually went down through shrapnel severing a mechanical linkage

 

[quiquaquo]

Who gains from this? Tony Fernandes and Air Asia.

 

[not-bono-ever]

these SAMS- are they heat based lock on ?

 

[Dr Jon]

Is there any reason Malay planes are being targeted in particular?

They're (still) not paying the ransom ?

 

[2hats]

Control systems, the Jumbo has three levels of back up, one still was working. Eventually went down through shrapnel severing a mechanical linkage

Three of four hydraulic systems on KAL007 were damaged by shrapnel from the missile warhead (a first missile missed the aircraft and a second, radar guided missile, exploded behind the vehicle on a proximity fuse). An elevator crossover cable was also damaged. That's all that has ever been publicly documented. Not all systems duplicate the roles of others.

It's possible that the plane crashed whilst attempting to ditch/find somewhere (the flight crew certainly didn't know quite where they were) to make an emergency landing (they had already made an emergency descent to deal with decompression arising from the shrapnel puncturing the pressure hull).

 

[frogwoman]

We're not going to war over this?? Fuck

 

[not-bono-ever]

this is ideal for Putin to distance himself from the arsey insurgents and gain some credit from the West- he needs those sanctions removed- the economy will suffer. This could theretically defuse somewhat the situation in Ukraine if handled properly. Lets see how he plays it.

 

[weltweit]

this is ideal for Putin to distance himself from the arsey insurgents and gain some credit from the West- he needs those sanctions removed- the economy will suffer. This could theretically defuse somewhat the situation in Ukraine if handled properly. Lets see how he plays it.

If it transpires that the aircraft was shot down with a missile system supplied to the rebels by Russia, I don't see so much positive for Putin. If it was a missile system taken from Ukranian forces, perhaps.

 

[quiquaquo]

If it transpires that the aircraft was shot down with a missile system supplied to the rebels by Russia, I don't see so much positive for Putin. If it was a missile system taken from Ukranian forces, perhaps.

If, that's a big if.

 

[Fez909]

If it transpires that the aircraft was shot down with a missile system supplied to the rebels by Russia, I don't see so much positive for Putin.

Why not? No negatives seem to surround Western countries when atrocities are committed with weapons they supplied.

 

[weltweit]

Why not? No negatives seem to surround Western countries when atrocities are committed with weapons they supplied.

You may have a point.

More relevant perhaps is if the rebels have been shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft recently in that area, and I believe they have claimed that, why were commercial airlines still flying over the area? it seems at the least foolhardy. And a rebel commander seems to have claimed he thought he had shot down a military transport plane at the same time as this plane was hit. Seems quite likely he shot this plane down.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

CNN are reporting that the US saw a missile radar system and heat source indicating a missile

 

[pseudonarcissus]

The International AIDS Society today expresses its sincere sadness at receiving news that a number of colleagues and friends en route to attend the 20th International AIDS Conference taking place in Melbourne, Australia, were on board the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight that has crashed over Ukraine earlier today.

At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy.

 

[xenon]

If the tail cone took a hit which resulted in the horizontal stabilizers being jammed to max while the engines were still providing cruse thrust, would it loop the loop till it ran out of avgas?

Better people with a grasp of physics will shoot me down sorry no pun intended. If a missile hit from the front: the direction of travel, nutons laws and all that. Could it have come down relatively near impact zone?

 

[pseudonarcissus]

if a heat seeking missile went for a hot engine and blew a wing off I suspect it wouldn't glide very far

 

[xenon]

I was thinking even if it hit under the front sort of flips the plane upwards and it landed on its arse

 

[2hats]

NOTAMs closing Ukraine airspace to most transiting traffic, at all altitudes, and restricting other movements were issued within the last two hours.

 

[likesfish]

The Korean jet shot down by the Soviets back in the day flew on after being hit by missiles, there are back up control systems that take over.

It was hit by an air to air missile the sam has a 59kg warhead!
For example 3kg of explosive will take the turret of a tank off

 

[dylanredefined]

these SAMS- are they heat based lock on ?

No radar controlled.

 

[stowpirate]

The media today appear to value US lives more than any other nationality involved in this screw up?

There is going to be loads of Cold War style sabre-rattling over the next few days.

 

[pocketscience]

Better people with a grasp of physics will shoot me down ...... nutons laws and all that.

Could it have come down relatively near impact zone?

Yes

 

[Spymaster]

Better people with a grasp of physics will shoot me down sorry no pun intended. If a missile hit from the front: the direction of travel, nutons laws and all that. Could it have come down relatively near impact zone?

There are many scenarios that could lead to the plane crashing near to where it was hit. As mauvais mentioned the missile slamming into the middle of the aircraft and immediately blowing it to smithereens is largely Hollywood fiction. Sometimes the missile doesn't even hit the plane but explodes nearby, causing enough damage to let gravity do the rest.

It's too early to speculate on impact positions, debris fields and the like.

 

[weltweit]

BBC reports the rebels have retrieved the aircraft's black box which may now be on its way to Moscow.