Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
that im sure will be up to transparent international investigation, whenever it eventually starts.
Any word yet of them having WMDs ?
Any word yet of them having WMDs ?
Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine
- Thread starter Fingers
- Start date
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Technically 13-0. I hate being pedantry but the way things are going CR going to start clutching onto those last few straws in a few pages.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Compared to the volumes of data the Russians have provided in their "blame Ukraine" narrative.
Putin probably won't oblige given how fucking useless their aim is.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
this is all very odd I reckon . The junta are claiming they have definitive evidence the rebels are being supplied with these types of weapons by Russia. Also claiming to have been intercepting the communications of the guys the claim did it . And yet on the very day this plane was shot down, just hours before it happened this is what they were telling the worlds media.
The Ukrainian government also accused Russia of shooting down an An-26 transport plane over eastern Ukraine on Monday, with the loss or reported capture of its crew members.
Ukrainian officials sought to argue that pro-Russian separatist rebels could not have downed the plane because they lacked missiles to hit it at high altitude.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28345039
yet just hours later theyre claiming to have definitive proof of the very opposite . Definite bullshitting there from the Ukrainian side.
The Ukrainian government also accused Russia of shooting down an An-26 transport plane over eastern Ukraine on Monday, with the loss or reported capture of its crew members.
Ukrainian officials sought to argue that pro-Russian separatist rebels could not have downed the plane because they lacked missiles to hit it at high altitude.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28345039
yet just hours later theyre claiming to have definitive proof of the very opposite . Definite bullshitting there from the Ukrainian side.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
where have they stated the Ukrainians shot it down ?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
good point
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I believe its far from an outlandish scenario that a Ukrainian military who apparently believed their own aircraft were coming under attack from Russian warplanes and incursions were being made in their airspace on that very day would at the very least have their AA defences deployed to that border area and be ready to fire them . That doesnt at all mean they did it, but it certainly puts them in the frame every bit as much as the rebels. Yet thats a scenario the western media arent even looking at in the slightest . Despite the woeful and poorly trained state of the Ukrainian military and their track record of downing a civilian flight in an earlier blunder.
earlier in the the same week they were claiming it had been a Russian warplane that bombed an apartment block in that town
its frankly staggering that the western media havent challenged the Ukrainian assertion it was definitely the rebels who did it when just hours earlier on that very day they were broadcasting the Ukrainian governments definitive assertions the rebels did not possess such weaponry to begin with . And that such an about face on an absolutely crucial issue on the very same day isnt even remotely mentioned.
TheHoodedClaw
acknowledging ur soup leg
Wonder if he's getting paid by the word?
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Its central to this entire issue that the bulk of this western media narrative is based throughout upon the unchallenged claims of the Kiev junta. Yet on Thursday afternoon the junta was making the claim the rebels definitely didnt possess BUK and only the Russian airforce could be responsible for downing their aircraft. By Thursday evening though they were telling the worlds media theyve had evidence all along the Russians have supplied them with it.
Massive glaring fucking hole there but the media arent going near it
Massive glaring fucking hole there but the media arent going near it
Just because they claimed that doesn't mean they believed it.
And the media don't appear to be "basing their narrative throughout upon the unchallenged claims of the Kiev junta" but on rather on other sources such as Barack Obama's statement that the missile was fired from a rebel area.
But no it's all a big conspiracy against Mother Russia isn't it? That's why the Russian rebels aren't allowing international teams unfettered access to the crash site.
And the media don't appear to be "basing their narrative throughout upon the unchallenged claims of the Kiev junta" but on rather on other sources such as Barack Obama's statement that the missile was fired from a rebel area.
But no it's all a big conspiracy against Mother Russia isn't it? That's why the Russian rebels aren't allowing international teams unfettered access to the crash site.
TheHoodedClaw
acknowledging ur soup leg
Do you fancy going back through the thread and addressing the evidence that has been posted? That's the posts that you have studiously not replied to.
Maybe there should be a separate thread for MH17 conspiracy theories and discussion thereof, to avoid polluting this one?
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
But no it's all a big conspiracy against Mother Russia isn't it? That's why the Russian rebels aren't allowing international teams unfettered access to the crash site.
What is it about planes crashing and conspiracy nuts? They're like moths to the flame.
Oblique black humour. Like it.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Interesting Russian analyst on BBC TV News who suggested Putin may have less influence on the separatists than some may think. I tend to agree with this, Putin isn't in any position to guarantee investigators access to the crash scene unless he invades and takes over the region and I don't think many would want that.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
There are some efforts being made to recover the victims from the crash scene, there have been search parties, sometimes of volunteers, and the location of bodies or remains have been marked with white flags. And there have been groups of emergency workers removing bodies from the site, although there seems no information on where they have been taken. There seem to be groups trying to do the right thing but my impression is that local authorities are simply overwhelmed.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I didn't wanna seem greedy
It's more likely that they were bullshitting about Russia shooting down one of their planes than about this passenger plane. So the two claims contradict each other - but if you're saying the rebels couldn't have shot down the passenger plane because they didn't have the capability, then it means that it must have been Russia shooting down Ukrainian planes - which doesn't seem too likely either imo.
It's also worth pointing out that as a "false flag" attack it would make no sense, as the passenger plane was so absolutely unrelated to the conflict that nobody is really suggesting it was deliberately shot down.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
The media especially the right wing section is going to town on Putin and Russia, there is an article in the Observer on how ordinary Russians are afraid of what might happen.
I remember in the army in the 80s' being shown propaganda of Russians/eastern bloc soldiers, often with fuck off collars and shaved heads and being informed how monstrous they are, ten years later I am holidaying in their countries drinking beer, won't get fooled again.
2hats
Dust.
Video of what appears to be one of the FDRs being recovered (recorded Friday) has turned up (CNN).
(Looks like the dimensions are consistent with a 777 CVR and the ULB is possibly still attached).
e2a: WSJ&Guardian journalists report DPR leader Borodai stating that black boxes have been removed to Donetsk.
(Looks like the dimensions are consistent with a 777 CVR and the ULB is possibly still attached).
e2a: WSJ&Guardian journalists report DPR leader Borodai stating that black boxes have been removed to Donetsk.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
A conspiracy nut on a football forum I moderate is claiming that there weren't any victims on the plane at all
Ban him.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
TBH it is a bit outlandish - for a start, why would they put a SAM system in the area of that type when it takes considerably more effort, and is considerably less capable, than just having fighters that can intercept Russian aircraft loitering over the area? Why would they be letting their own transport and ground attack aircraft fly in the area unprotected if they honestly thought there was a chance of air interception? More to the point, why would they let their own transport and ground attack aircraft fly in the area if they were going to put a SAM system (without any command and control facilities that could determine what it is they were firing at) there?
That said, the Ukrainians are clearly trying to over-egg the pudding at every given stage - but you would expect them to, given what a massive gift this incident has been to them.
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