Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[belboid]

im not coming out with any evidence of it because I simply havent accused them of it . What Ive stated is theres no actual evidence the rebels did it, no actual evidence the rebels even possess such a system, no actual evidence a BUK system was even used and pointed to the only people there we know for sure have such missile batteries, and even bigger lnger range ones, are the Ukrainian military . An outfit with a long track record of committing massive fuck ups just like this . And a track record of disseminating utter horseshit as proof of Russian misdeeds. Such as their dodgy dossier of photos proving Russian special forces involvement that turned out to be no such thing. Yet they arent even remotely potential suspects within the western narrative which has been predetermined from the very outset . And their word is simply being accepted as fact and going unquestioned, whether by the western media or the russophobes on here.

you posted that ten minutes ago, and here's what I said at the time:

There is evidence of many of those things. You just refuse to accept any of them. Occasionally for good reason, but mainly because you are completely in denial.

If people want to have a go at me for disputing Kiev and the NATO powers narrative and question my motives for refusing to accept it unquestioningly then theres an onus in turn on them to explain their own motives for insisting the word of the Kiev junta and the western media and political class must be immediately and unquestioningly believed. Those motives for supporting these groups can be speculated upon but im not going to bother.

No one has unquestionably accepted Kiev's version of events, but there are verifiable facts, most of which make it look bad for your side.

 

[1%er]

Yes. Reported by TASS and RIA Novosti at the end of June. Of course whether that is (was originally) misinformation on the Russian side to cover direct supply of BUK launchers to/in support of the separatists (as is claimed by the Ukrainians) is a separate question.

Thanks, I thought I'd read somewhere about this and posted a link here (post 280) and I've now found it. The FT reports "In late June rebel forces over-ran a small military base near Donetsk that houses anti-aircraft unit A1402 of the Ukrainian army. It is possible that they captured the launcher in doing so."

It goes on to say "The Ukrainian ministry of defence, however, has said it has accounted for all 60 of those it operates."

If that is the case, the only other country in the region that has this system is Russia.

I have no opinion on where the missile launcher came from, but if we accept the word of the Ukrainian ministry of defence the separatists did not acquire this launcher from their base.

This is something that should be easy to verify by any inquiry into this tragedy.

 

[Casually Red]

As for evidence of the rebels having a Buk, there's always the news articles where they said they'd captured one. But then you can't trust Western media can you.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

Or the Russian media. Or what the rebels said.

as has already been covered on the thread the Ukrainian military have stated all 60 of their BUK systems are in their possession and accounted for. So that news report isnt anything like conclusive evidence the rebels possess the system. It simply isnt. It sounds to be more like an empty boast intended to dissuade the Ukrainian air force from indiscriminately dropping bombs on seperatist towns and villages. Which theyve been doing rather a lot of of late. Psychological warfare emanating from the rebels, propaganda. Plainly if the Ukrainian military are telling the truth that all their systems are accounted for then the rebel claim to have seized one is simply a lie for the media and certainly not evidence of them possessing one .

 

[cesare]

Channel 4 news just showed a dead hand and watch amongst the cockpit.

 

[Poi E]

Plainly if the Ukrainian military are telling the truth that all their systems are accounted for then the rebel claim to have seized one is simply a lie for the media and certainly not evidence of them possessing one .

Or vlad did them a good deal on one. Pretty reasonable theory.

 

[belboid]

the OSCE ... Theres no evidence they are being blocked.

Not was the OSCE themselves say:

OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw said access had improved from Friday and that the monitors were seeing parts of the field they had not seen before.

However he added that their movement were still being restricted. "We are unarmed civilians, we are not in the position to argue heavily with people with heavy arms," he said.

 

[mauvais]

as has already been covered on the thread the Ukrainian military have stated all 60 of their BUK systems are in their possession and accounted for. So that news report isnt anything like conclusive evidence the rebels possess the system. It simply isnt. It sounds to be more like an empty boast intended to dissuade the Ukrainian air force from indiscriminately dropping bombs on seperatist towns and villages. Which theyve been doing rather a lot of of late. Psychological warfare emanating from the rebels, propaganda. Plainly if the Ukrainian military are telling the truth that all their systems are accounted for then the rebel claim to have seized one is simply a lie for the media and certainly not evidence of them possessing one .

It's funny, isn't it, that one news report is to be taken as gospel and the other as propaganda - especially given the sources. The problem for you is that it doesn't matter what Kiev say, since the overwhelming evidence comes from facts on the ground.

I suppose the Ukrainians shot down their own transport planes.

I suppose you've forgotten all the vehicles that curiously sported Russian numberplates at the start of this conflict, that according to Moscow definitely weren't supplied by Russia. If the Ukrainian assets really are all accounted for then it rather points the finger in an alarming direction, and not towards Kiev.

 

[Casually Red]

you posted that ten minutes ago, and here's what I said at the time:

There is evidence of many of those things. You just refuse to accept any of them. Occasionally for good reason, but mainly because you are completely in denial.


No one has unquestionably accepted Kiev's version of events, but there are verifiable facts, most of which make it look bad for your side.

jesus christ man theres even been claims made here about corpse desecration that transpired to have come directly from The Sun headlines . Its certainly not me thats in denial.

im refusing to accept evidence because no actual evidence has been posted here, only unverified and sometimes unverifiable claims . The case against the rebels is simply circumstantial at best , the case for an alternative culprit despite obvious means, obvious motive, disgraceful track record and being nazi bastards isnt even being considered. Thats a disgrace in my view, a very deliberate moral panic being created to justify political and military aggression.

At no stage have I even denied the rebels shot the plane down . All Ive done is state how the western media narrative has determined the rebels to be the culprits from the very outset without any evidence, refused to entertain even the possibility the Ukrainian military may have done anything. When there hasnt even been an investigation yet. Thats very dangerous in my view. Theres a very strong possibility this could be used to justify direct NATO intervention, and things could then get very dangerous indeed. Accepting claims that havent been proven, which is definiteoy what people are doing here, is a very stupid and dangerous thing to do. Particularly given whats at stake.

 

[Poi E]

Yeah the pogroms against Jews in Ukraine have been shocking.

 

[Casually Red]

Or vlad did them a good deal on one. Pretty reasonable theory.

well youd need to make your mind up. The rebel claim theyd seized one is being flatly contradicted by Kiev. Yet that claimthey seized one is being used by some on here to prove they have BUK systems.

Its worth bearing in mind it hasnt even remotely been proven a BUK system was even fired. That remains media supposition, not fact . Not that it matters to any on here.

 

[belboid]

jesus christ man theres even been claims made here about corpse desecration that transpired to have come directly from The Sun headlines . Its certainly not me thats in denial.

im refusing to accept evidence because no actual evidence has been posted here, only unverified and sometimes unverifiable claims . The case against the rebels is simply circumstantial at best , the case for an alternative culprit despite obvious means, obvious motive, disgraceful track record and being nazi bastards isnt even being considered. Thats a disgrace in my view, a very deliberate moral panic being created to justify political and military aggression.

At no stage have I even denied the rebels shot the plane down . All Ive done is state how the western media narrative has determined the rebels to be the culprits from the very outset without any evidence, refused to entertain even the possibility the Ukrainian military may have done anything. When there hasnt even been an investigation yet. Thats very dangerous in my view. Theres a very strong possibility this could be used to justify direct NATO intervention, and things could then get very dangerous indeed. Accepting claims that havent been proven, which is definiteoy what people are doing here, is a very stupid and dangerous thing to do. Particularly given whats at stake.

Plenty of evidence has been posted. There is evidence as to where the missile was fired from. There is evidence as to who possesses those missiles. Here is evidence of who has been finding at aircraft in recent weeks. There is evidence of separatists claiming and celebrating responsibility. It's all 'evidence', and it foolish of you to deny it. You needn't find it compelling evidence (I certainly don't, yet), but it is notable that it is al,l in one direction. Your believed Russian state hasn't come up with anything beyond speculation that points the finger in any mother direction. Which is a little telling. Or should be, anyway.

 

[Poi E]

Fair enough but it makes for a good u75 punch up.

 

[Casually Red]

Yeah the pogroms against Jews in Ukraine have been shocking.

the slaughter of ethnic russians certainly has been . Whats also shocking is the level of support on here for people whos political ancestors certainly did commit genocide against jews, poles and ethnic russians. Something they are regarded as heroes for by the kiev junta and ist hangers on.

 

[Casually Red]

Plenty of evidence has been posted. There is evidence as to where the missile was fired from. There is evidence as to who possesses those missiles. Here is evidence of who has been finding at aircraft in recent weeks. There is evidence of separatists claiming and celebrating responsibility. It's all 'evidence', and it foolish of you to deny it. You needn't find it compelling evidence (I certainly don't, yet), but it is notable that it is al,l in one direction. Your believed Russian state hasn't come up with anything beyond speculation that points the finger in any mother direction. Which is a little telling. Or should be, anyway.

no evidence has been posted here at all . only claims

and the Russian state hasnt come up with anythiung other than speculation because, as keeps needing to be stated, there hasnt even been an investigation yet. And bar the inflight recorders no actual evidence has been gathered by anyone. Only specualtion and suposition. Which certainly isnt evidence no matter how many times you state it is evidence.

 

[2hats]

theres even been claims made here about corpse desecration

Leaving them to fester and rot exposed to the elements, in a warm and humid summer, for several days is obviously the correct and reasonable way to treat them, and is, along with impeding access to them and the wreckage, bound to help resolve the circumstances of their demise.

 

[Poi E]

the slaughter of ethnic russians certainly has been . Whats also shocking is the level of support on here for people whos political ancestors certainly did commit genocide against jews, poles and ethnic russians. Something they are regarded as heroes for by the kiev junta and ist hangers on.

Are you equally suspicious of Germany for the sins of their fathers?

 

[belboid]

no evidence has been posted here at all . only claims

and the Russian state hasnt come up with anythiung other than speculation because, as keeps needing to be stated, there hasnt even been an investigation yet. And bar the inflight recorders no actual evidence has been gathered by anyone. Only specualtion and suposition. Which certainly isnt evidence no mayyer how many times you state it is evidence.

Russia has satellites which would have shown any missile being fired from Ukraine. They will be tracking Ukrainian troops. There is plenty of evidence of where the missile came from. You don't seem to actually understand what evidence is. The crash site, for instance, isn't likely to tell anyone anything much useful about who fired the weapon, is it? So your insistence upon the inflight rcorders being key is just plain wrong.

 

[Casually Red]

Are you equally suspicious of Germany for the sins of their fathers?

only those german political parties and politicins who wear nazi unforms , give nazi salutes honour nazi mass murderers as true patriots and shout nazi slogans.
While this is a minority persuit in germany its very different in Ukraine were its mainstream political orthodoxy these days . Which is why people have rebelled against that regime.

 

[thriller]

realpolitik. if this were syria or iran, there would be bombing and sanctions within 72 hours.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Are you equally suspicious of Germany for the sins of their fathers?

Yes, he is. Apparently, great swathes of Eastern Germany are under Nazi control as we speak.

 

[Casually Red]

Russia has satellites which would have shown any missile being fired from Ukraine. They will be tracking Ukrainian troops. There is plenty of evidence of where the missile came from. You don't seem to actually understand what evidence is. The crash site, for instance, isn't likely to tell anyone anything much useful about who fired the weapon, is it? So your insistence upon the inflight rcorders being key is just plain wrong.

the wreckahe of the fuselgae is actually pretty key . Flight recorders are sort of important too . There as yet isnt any actual evidence of where the missile was fired from, or by who . Or what it even was. Only supposition . There is no evidence as yet to pin the blame on anyone, whether seperatist or Ukrainian . There isnt even an investigation underway yet .

 

[goldenecitrone]

Article by Masha Alekhina on how the Russian media is reporting this story.

On Thursday in eastern Ukraine – where Russian-supported separatists have declared an autonomous state – a plane with civilians on board was shot down.

The plane did not crash and it did not "collapse" – as was written by some of the Russian media – it was shot down from the ground. We in Russia know this – if not from our own news organizations, then from several video commentaries, including one in which a little boy says, "Look! A junta plane has been shot down! Well done, DPR!" (The DPR is the Russian-backed Donetsk People's Republic, and the "junta" is the legally elected government of Ukraine – the typical way for Russian propaganda to refer to the present government in Kiev.) This child does not know – and may never find out – that the downed aircraft had children like him on board.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/19/russian-media-cover-up-putin-mh17-tragedy

 

[Casually Red]

Leaving them to fester and rot exposed to the elements, in a warm and humid summer, for several days is obviously the correct and reasonable way to treat them, and is, along with impeding access to them and the wreckage, bound to help resolve the circumstances of their demise.

today they started moving them . Immediately the western media started shreiking they were moving the evidence.

 

[Poi E]

Being a Slavic neo-nazi is a bit self defeating.

 

[Casually Red]

realpolitik. if this were syria or iran, there would be bombing and sanctions within 72 hours.

there already is bombing and sanctons, a hell of a lot of innocent people have already been killed. There are many thousands of refugees fleeing for theirlives. Therell probably be a lot more now

 

[Casually Red]

Being a Slavic neo-nazi is a bit self defeating.

its no bar to high office in ukraine these days

 

[weltweit]

A number of leaders are demanding Putin provide access to the crash site, this assumes either that the separatists will do exactly what he tells them if he tells them, or that Russian forces are expected to cross the border to secure the site. I don't imagine Ukranians would be happy with option 2.

 

[Poi E]

its no bar to high office in ukraine these days

Explains the flight of the Jews from Ukraine.

 

[Casually Red]

Russia has satellites which would have shown any missile being fired from Ukraine. They will be tracking Ukrainian troops. There is plenty of evidence of where the missile came from. You don't seem to actually understand what evidence is. The crash site, for instance, isn't likely to tell anyone anything much useful about who fired the weapon, is it? So your insistence upon the inflight rcorders being key is just plain wrong.

the USA has satellites which most certainly will have been tracking the seperatists. As yet they havent shown any missile being fired anyone either. So theres no evidence, and certainly not on here.

 

[Casually Red]

Explains the flight of the Jews from Ukraine.

tens of thousands of people have fled ukraine. theres around 30,000 in refugee camps on the russian border.