Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Suppose for a moment we enter the reality distortion field in which the only people with a Buk launcher are the pro-Kiev faction. I suppose then they smuggled it into a very obviously rebel held zone, shot down the plane, and then smuggled it out, erm, east... to Russia?

Yeah, that seems eminently sensible.

if youve any proof whatsoever the seperatists even possess a BUK missile system then by all means feel free to post it . The UN security council would certainly love to see it . The juntas forces admit to having 60 of them and say all theirs are accounted for, none of them are in rebel control according to them . So there simply isnt any evidence whatsoever the rebel forces even possess one.
And the system has a range of well over 100 kms . Just because it was hit over that area it certainly doesnt mean in turn it was fired on from there. It could be fired from a very long ditance away and Ukrainian systems are certainly well within that range. In fact most if not all of their 60 BUK systems will be pointing at the russian border. As will their S200 ststems as well. It hasnt even been proven a BUK system was even used.

as regards your insistence that it would have to be smuggled in any direction thats simply not based on any logical premise.

 

[fishfinger]

if youve any proof whatsoever the seperatists possess a BUK system then by all means feel free to post it . The UN security council would certainly love to see it . The juntas forces admit to having 60 of them and say all their are accounted for, none of them are in rebel control according to them . So there simply isnt any evidence whatsoever the rebel forces even possess one.
And the system has a range of well over 100 kms . Just because it was hit over that area it certainly doesnt mean it was fired on from there.

as regards your insistence that it would have to be smuggled in any direction thats not based on any logical premise.

The US can pinpoint the missile launch location with this:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/sbirs.html

 

[2hats]

regardless of what that spokesperson said the undeniable facts are the Ukrainian government and military were still denying their missile was responsible right into 2013

That's right. Best to ignore the admission of shoot down by the Ukrainian navy at the time and the conclusions of the Russian Interstate Aviation Committee (equivalent of AAIB/NTSB and investigating authority within the jurisdiction), even setting aside the intelligence furnished by the US (if you wish) ie all the technically informed actors and go with the legal argument...

 

[farmerbarleymow]

Why are you trying to derail the thread?

He talks shite wherever he goes, so I'm not surprised.

 

[2hats]

The US can pinpoint the missile launch location with this

Most likely the source of the IR data (launch exhaust/warhead detonation) referred to in US intelligence reports.

 

[mauvais]

As for evidence of the rebels having a Buk, there's always the news articles where they said they'd captured one. But then you can't trust Western media can you.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday.

Or the Russian media. Or what the rebels said.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

As for evidence of the rebels having a Buk, there's always the news articles where they said they'd captured one. But then you can't trust Western media can you.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

Or the Russian media. Or what the rebels said.

Reality is not one of Casually Red's strong points.

 

[mauvais]

I can't help wondering how far it extends.

Was there a plane at all? Is the Ukraine even a real place? What time is love?

 

[laptop]

Not expecting any more real news on this over the weekend, so may I be forgiven a diversion?

Why would anyone support Putin and swallow his propaganda? Because:

1. paid
2. believes Putin is the true heir to Lenin
3. believes Putin is the true heir to Big Jim Larkin
4. will support anyone who's not American
5. will support anyone who's not British
6. will support anyone who dislikes the gayers
7. other...

 

[Casually Red]

It's a story on the front of the Sun about the looting of the dead again, isn't it? FFS.

yup, it is. Plenty on Urban wholl lap that sort of shit up quite happily. A few of them still probably believe Liverpool fans urinated on the dead at Hillsboro as well .

but as we can also see having the affrontery to dispute this narrative gets them accusing you of derailing the thread, as opposed to disuting the bullshit being posted as fact.

 

[1%er]

What time is love?

About 20 minutes after hammer-time

 

[strung out]

A conspiracy nut on a football forum I moderate is claiming that there weren't any victims on the plane at all

 

[Casually Red]

As already pointed out to you, that's an argument about compensation. They accepted responsibility at the time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1358586/Airliner-blasted-out-of-sky.html

Funny which posts you choose to reply to, and which you choose to ignore, isn't it?

they admitted it and then denied it . Theres nothing funny about it and nothings being ignored, at least not by me.

 

[weltweit]

No logical premise except for the pictures of one, minus one of its missiles, being moved into Russia.

Assuming there is only one VT, it was pretty inconclusive.

 

[laptop]

A conspiracy nut on a football forum I moderate is claiming that there weren't any victims on the plane at all

Someone somewhere has decided the plane was loaded up with dead people, and then shot down, by the Ukraine, to discredit Russia.

Spoiler: popular culture reference

Clearly they've watched Sherlock

Thankfully, the mind-wash has removed all traces of where I saw that.

 

[1%er]

Someone somewhere has decided the plane was loaded up with dead people, and then shot down, by the Ukraine, to discredit Russia.

Spoiler: popular culture reference

Clearly they've watched Sherlock

Thankfully, the mind-wash has removed all traces of where I saw that.

did you quote my post by mistake

 

[2hats]

if youve any proof whatsoever the seperatists even possess a BUK missile system then by all means feel free to post it .

Already done. Do try and keep up.

And the system has a range of well over 100 kms .

35 to 50 km range depending on variant.

It hasnt even been proven a BUK system was even used.

Shouldn't be too difficult if trained investigators could get to the wreckage and swab the remains of the airframe which will have been washed with a unique explosives signature and examine it/passengers/cargo for tell-tale signs of the warhead type (a couple of the images from the ground hint at a fragmentation warhead of the BUK type - no sign of a continuous rod type munition). The radar signature of the targeting launcher and warhead are quite distinctive too and it sounds like those have been recorded.

 

[a_chap]

fuck off, you apologist turd

And thus another thread becomes a "proper" U75 thread....

 

[mauvais]

Just to stick the boot in one more time:

And the system has a range of well over 100 kms . Just because it was hit over that area it certainly doesnt mean it was fired on from there.

Got any evidence for this? I really love facts, see. Here's one: the maximum range is 31 miles.

You might like to look at that on a map.

Ummm... nah, I've got nothing.

 

[belboid]

they admitted it and then denied it . Theres nothing funny about it and nothings being ignored, at least not by me.

No dear, course not.

You're also not coming out with any kind of evidence as to Kiev carrying out the attack. Funny that.

 

[Casually Red]

That's right. Best to ignore the admission of shoot down by the Ukrainian navy at the time and the conclusions of the Russian Interstate Aviation Committee (equivalent of AAIB/NTSB and investigating authority within the jurisdiction), even setting aside the intelligence furnished by the US (if you wish) ie all the technically informed actors and go with the legal argument...

you sound a little confused. Its the Ukrainian state who denied they shot it down, not me . Im only pointing to their denial in the face of all the evidence against them. Not supporting their denials of responsibility . Youve confused the 2 things.

 

[laptop]

did you quote my post by mistake

Yes Fixed.

 

[2hats]

you sound a little confused. Its the Ukrainian state who denied they shot it down, not me . Im only pointing to their denial in the face of all the evidence against them. Not supporting their denials of responsibility . Youve confused the 2 things.

I'm not the one tying myself in knots and trying to best the Kremlin at muddying any discussion.

 

[1%er]

Already done. Do try and keep up.

Are you referring to reports that the separatists over-ran a Ukrainian army base and captured this missile launcher?

(I've kind of lost myself with this thread, that is why I ask)

 

[Casually Red]

No dear, course not.

You're also not coming out with any kind of evidence as to Kiev carrying out the attack. Funny that.

im not coming out with any evidence of it because I simply havent accused them of it . What Ive stated is theres no actual evidence the rebels did it, no actual evidence the rebels even possess such a system, no actual evidence a BUK system was even used and pointed to the only people there we know for sure have such missile batteries, and even bigger ones, are the Ukrainian military . An outfit with a long track record of committing massive fuck ups just like this . And a track record of disseminating utter horseshit as proof of Russian misdeeds. Such as their dodgy dossier of photos proving Russian special forces involvement that turned out to be no such thing. Yet they arent even remotely potential suspects within the western narrative which has been predetermined from the very outset . And their word is simply being accepted as fact and going unquestioned, whether by the western media or the russophobes on here.

 

[belboid]

There is evidence of many of those things. You just refuse to accept any of them. Occasionally for good reason, but mainly because you are completely in denial.

 

[goldenecitrone]

It's like the good old days of watching Dr. Jazzz get his arse handed to him. Again and again and again. Shame it's on such a tragic subject though.

 

[2hats]

Are you referring to reports that the separatists over-ran a Ukrainian army base and captured this missile launcher?

Yes. Reported by TASS and RIA Novosti at the end of June. Of course whether that is (was originally) misinformation on the Russian side to cover direct supply of BUK launchers to/in support of the separatists (as is claimed by the Ukrainians) is a separate question.

 

[Casually Red]

No dear, course not.

You're also not coming out with any kind of evidence as to Kiev carrying out the attack. Funny that.

im not coming out with any evidence of it because I simply havent accused them of it . What Ive stated is theres no actual evidence the rebels did it, no actual evidence the rebels even possess such a system, no actual evidence a BUK system was even used and pointed to the only people there we know for sure have such missile batteries, and even bigger lnger range ones, are the Ukrainian military . An outfit with a long track record of committing massive fuck ups just like this . And a track record of disseminating utter horseshit as proof of Russian misdeeds. Such as their dodgy dossier of photos proving Russian special forces involvement that turned out to be no such thing. Yet they arent even remotely potential suspects within the western narrative which has been predetermined from the very outset . And their word is simply being accepted as fact and going unquestioned, whether by the western media or the russophobes on here.

If people want to have a go at me for disputing Kiev and the NATO powers narrative and question my motives for refusing to accept it unquestioningly then theres an onus in turn on them to explain their own motives for insisting the word of the Kiev junta and the western media and political class must be immediately and unquestioningly believed. Those motives for supporting these groups can be speculated upon but im not going to bother.

 

[2hats]

An outfit with a long track record of committing massive fuck ups just like this

Sounds like a description of most military authorities, given sufficient time.