Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[MAD-T-REX]

America admitted it but said the crew did the right thing in the circumstances as they believed them to be and refused to apologise.

This goes well beyond a lack of real expertise. The Malaysian flight was a lot larger than Ukrainian fighter jets and flying faster and higher than Ukrainian military transports. It was also heading east on a straight line into Russian airspace - where exactly did those brain-dead drunks think it was going if it was a military plane?

 

[dylanredefined]

I wonder what happened when the US Warship (USS Vincennes IIRC) shot down the Iranian Airliner. Might be interesting to see what those parties said at the time.

I can understand the Ukranian separatists wanting SAMS to try to balance against the regime's air forces. And given they have had some success recently, can also understand their searching for new targets and especially if they were not very expert, mistakenly thinking they had found another regime plane.

What I can't understand is why commercial airliners were flying over this war zone, where aircraft had been only recently shot down by Surface to Air Missile Systems.

I remember wibbilings about the airbus being a kamikaze or the Iranians deliberately setting it up so it could be shot down. Turns out the Vincennes was just trigger happy and their super duper radar wasn't that super duper after all. It could tell something was out there. What it was and what is was doing
was a lot harder to tell. So the captain made the wrong choice and of course the USA couldn't be seen to make mistakes.

The SAM's used were man pads. I guess at cruising height they thought it was safe enough. The rebels had got hold of the BUK system ,but, either no one thought they could use it or they wouldn't shoot at obvious airliners

 

[weltweit]

I remember wibbilings about the airbus being a kamikaze or the Iranians deliberately setting it up so it could be shot down. Turns out the Vincennes was just trigger happy and their super duper radar wasn't that super duper after all. It could tell something was out there. What it was and what is was doing was a lot harder to tell. So the captain made the wrong choice and of course the USA couldn't be seen to make mistakes. ....

Sounds quite similar to this situation then.

 

[isvicthere?]

aint 24hour rolling news wonderful

Yeah. I notice they went to some air show in Hampshire for their "reaction" cos, y'know, it's to do with planes and that.

 

[scifisam]

Colossal fucktard of the century



http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/19/MH17-crash-Passengers-dead-rebel-leader-claims/

He's been watching Sherlock.

 

[dylanredefined]

Sounds quite similar to this situation then.

Ukrainians have more of an excuse.

 

[quiquaquo]

youre gonna love this... ( not mine or my beliefs just direct from the Icke forums )

'In Egyptian mythology, Osiris was killed on the 17th day of Athyr, the third month of the ancient calendar. Though not acknowledged, 17 seems to be a very meaningful number in the Mystery traditions, sort of equivalent to the Cross in Christianity. It symbolizes an unjust death and the promise of rebirth. Incidentally, Lazarus, whom many Biblical scholars believe was an adaptation of Osiris (Lazarus coming from El Ausur, Hebrew for "the god Osiris") was raised by Jesus in John 12:17. One of Lazarus’ sisters was named Marta, which means ‘mistress of the house’, the exact meaning of Nephthys.

The first officially acknowledged Masonic body, the Grand Lodge of England, was established on the Feast Day of John the Baptist in 1717. The most powerful Masonic body in the World, the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite has its headquarters on 1733 16th St. in Washington, DC. There are 33 degrees in Scottish Rite Masonry.

The last manned mission to the Moon was the Apollo 17 mission. The next is the Orion 17.

As Herodotus tells us, the Greeks identified Horus with Apollo: "Before these men, they said, the rulers of Egypt were gods, but none had been contemporary with the human priests. Of these gods one or another had in succession been supreme; the last of them to rule the country was Osiris' son Horus, whom the Greeks call Apollo; he deposed Typhon, and was the last divine king of Egypt. Osiris is, in the Greek language, Dionysus." -Herodotus, Book 2, Chapter 144

Orion was identified with Osiris, who again died on the 17th day of the third month. "Month," of course, derives from the root word moon. So how many crescent moons do we see on the Orion 17 mission patch?'

or all a load of bollocks , except, I was born on the 17th day of the 3rd month

17 = XVII which is an anagram of VIXI "lived" (past tense) in Latin which is why 17 is considered bad luck in Italy to the extent that Leeds Utd's Italian owner got rid of Paddy Kenny born on that day: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/03/massimo-cellino-leeds-united-paddy-kenny

I too was born on the 17th.

 

[pocketscience]

I wonder what happened when the US Warship (USS Vincennes IIRC) shot down the Iranian Airliner.

America did the honourable thing and decorated the Captain with a Legion of Merit medal.

Rogers remained in command of the USSVincennes until May 27, 1989. In 1990, Capt. Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit decoration "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the Commanding Officer of theVincennes, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.

 

[DotCommunist]

whereas the people behind this downing have probably been rewarded rather diffrerently

 

[ruffneck23]

17 = XVII which is an anagram of VIXIT "lived" (past tense) in Latin which is why 17 is considered bad luck in Italy to the extent that Leeds Utd's Italian owner got rid of Paddy Kenny born on that day: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/03/massimo-cellino-leeds-united-paddy-kenny

I too was born on the 17th.

17/3//71

 

[Theisticle]

Talk about cynical brand building right when Russia is in the news, she's been with RT for several years, and suddenly now grew a conscious:

http://www.channel4.com/news/rt-russia-today-sara-firth-quit-mh17-ukraine-video

 

[weltweit]

This might have already been posted:

MH17 crash: Ukraine releases alleged intercepts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28362872

Ukrainian authorities have released what they say are intercepted phone conversations between pro-Russian separatists and what appear to be Russian military officers saying that separatists shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

The Ukrainian Security Service put the Russian-language conversations on YouTube within hours of the crash.

The veracity of the recordings cannot be confirmed.

 

[pocketscience]

Interesting, highly unconfirmed I might add.

I wonder if "Carlos" really existed and if so, what's happened to him.
The #spainbuca twitter account has now been wiped out

eta:
his last tweets:

At 7:00 minutes the demolition was notified later the tower was taken with our foreign staff still here q


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 3m


Just disappear aircraft B 777 Malaysia Airlines kiev military authority informed us of the demolition, as you know?


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 9m


Yes kiev authorities want to tell the truth, I picked this 2 fighters flew very close minutes before, not shooting down a fighter


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 15m


The plane flew B 777 escorted by two fighter ukraine until minutes before disappearing from the radar,


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 48m


When possible I keep writing


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 50m


Expatriate staff makes kiev authorities in the tower? Gathering all the information


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 51m


We have confirmation. Downed aircraft, the authority of Kiev, already has the information down, we are calm now


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View translation
✈ Retweeted by Carlos.
Ricardo Marquina @ RusiaSeMueve · 1h


I fear that this has NOT been an accident. Here is someone has gone too far and I hope to pay, no matter who is


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 1h


Before I remove the tlf or I break the head, flattened by kiev


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 1h


We will remove our tel and others at any moment


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 1h


An accident is not just average, are not threatening in the same tower of Kiev airport


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Kiev, is what I wanted, I said in the first tw, kiev is responsible @ ActualidadRT


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Plane shot down, shot down, shot down no accident


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


The Malaysia Airlines B777 aircraft disappeared from the radar, there was no communication of any anomaly, confirmed


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✈ Retweeted by Carlos.
RT @ ActualidadRT in Spanish · 2h


# URGENT: The Boeing 777 with 280 passengers disappeared from radar when it was at 10,000 m altitude http://es.rt.com/yVE
View summary


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Retake control tower in kiev


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


I care! Kiev has what you want


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Eye! That may be a demolition Malaysia Airlines B777 in ukraine, 280 passengers


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Authorities kiev, trying to make may seem an attack by pro-Russian


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✈ Retweeted by Carlos.
Jason Rabinowitz @ AirlineFlyer · 2h


Here's a route map of @ MAS # MH17, que @ FlightAware lost track of right at the Ukraine / Poland border pic.twitter.com/IGvQJnkU7B
Embedded image permalink
View more photos and videos


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View translation
✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


B 777 Malaysia Airlines. 280 passengers crash, crashes in donetsk ukraine,


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✈ Retweeted by Carlos.
grasswire @ grasswire · 2h


Malaysian passenger plane with 280 passengers and 15 crew members crashed in Ukraine, near Russian border


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


B 777 Malaysia Airlines, crashes in ukraine, russia border


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Plane crash 777 passengers, donetsk area


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✈ Carlos. @ spainbuca · 2h


Plane crash passenger plane crashes in ukraine, donetsk area

found here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...read-Or-the-original-Butthurt-thread/page4087

 

[2hats]

What I can't understand is why commercial airliners were flying over this war zone, where aircraft had been only recently shot down by Surface to Air Missile Systems.

I'm given to understand that an operational floor of 32kft was set with respect to MANPADS/mortar/artillery shells on the basis of a ceiling of 24kft plus 33% safety margin. Evidently not on the basis of a top end air defence system being active.

There are lots of locations worldwide where such safety limits are set - eg it is 20kft over Iraq (FAA, not ICAO restriction).

There are altitude restrictions for Afghanistan, Congo, Mali, Kenya, Sinai, Yemen, outright bans elsewhere. Being FAA restrictions these only apply to US based/registered operators.

 

[1%er]

It takes a special kind of scumbag to loot dismembered bodies.

It happens a lot in war zones and where people are struggling to survive, it isn't uncommon to witness victims of serious road accidents being stripped of all their good while laying in the street hoping someone will help them in many parts of the world.

 

[2hats]

Someone in the Russian government caught engaging in a spot of revision?

A political battle has broken out on Wikipedia over an entry relating to the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, with the Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing "terrorists" with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner.

A Twitter bot which monitors edits made to the online encyclopaedia from Russian government IP addresses (unique numbers relating to certain computers or networks) has spotted that changes are being made to a page relating to the crash.

It appears that an internet user from within the All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VGTRK) changed a Russian language version of a page listing civil aviation accidents to say that "The plane [flight MH17] was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...overnment-edits-Wikipedia-on-flight-MH17.html

 

[purves grundy]

It happens a lot in war zones and where people are struggling to survive, it isn't uncommon to witness victims of serious road accidents being stripped of all their good while laying in the street hoping someone will help them in many parts of the world.

This isn't a dodgy street in a city though is it - this is, at the moment, possibly the most tightly controlled area of that region, and some of those who are claiming to be in charge are overseeing things on the ground.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

For the Dutch, the loss of that many people is, adjusted for population size, roughly the US loss on 9/11

 

[8den]

It happens a lot in war zones and where people are struggling to survive, it isn't uncommon to witness victims of serious road accidents being stripped of all their good while laying in the street hoping someone will help them in many parts of the world.

Similar behaviour can be found on the streets of London.

 

[1%er]

This isn't a dodgy street in a city though is it - this is, at the moment, possibly the most tightly controlled area of that region, and some of those who are claiming to be in charge are overseeing things on the ground.

it isn't a "dodgy street" but it is a war zone. I have little evidence of what it is like to live there at this time, I was just pointing out that this sort of thing isn't uncommon in many parts of the world where people are struggling.

I have witnessed people getting of a bus and rummaging through the wreckage of an accident removing items while the police stand and watch, it isn't a pretty site but I don't believe I am in a position to judge people if I don't know their circumstances.

 

[QueenOfGoths]

it isn't a "dodgy street" but it is a war zone. I have little evidence of what it is like to live there at this time, I was just pointing out that this sort of thing isn't uncommon in many parts of the world where people are struggling.

I have witnessed people getting of a bus and rummaging through the wreckage of an accident removing items while the police stand and watch, it isn't a pretty site but I don't believe I am in a position to judge people if I don't know their circumstances.

I appreciate not wanting to judge people not knowing their circumstances but can't help feeling that if this has happened in this case where families who have lost loved ones might like something returned as a momento then it is a bit shit

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

I can't believe that there are still bodies lying out in the open. What a massive, massive fuckup.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Spoiler

It's not a graphic image (no bodies or anything), just a rather big and horribly depressing one.

 

[agricola]

I remember wibbilings about the airbus being a kamikaze or the Iranians deliberately setting it up so it could be shot down. Turns out the Vincennes was just trigger happy and their super duper radar wasn't that super duper after all. It could tell something was out there. What it was and what is was doing
was a lot harder to tell. So the captain made the wrong choice and of course the USA couldn't be seen to make mistakes.

The SAM's used were man pads. I guess at cruising height they thought it was safe enough. The rebels had got hold of the BUK system ,but, either no one thought they could use it or they wouldn't shoot at obvious airliners

The US did claim with the Vincennes that the radar system and its operators did get confused at the time (basically they claimed the crew didnt understand that the Vincennes radar system was networked with other ships, in that the Airbus ended up with a different tracking number than the one they had initially given it because a sister ship had picked it up first, the tracking number they had given ended up with an American fighter flying CAP some distance away), but the system would have (and did) show what that plane was and what it was doing, had the captain bothered to check.

However he was too busy invading Iranian waters, and trying to shoot at men in little boats.

 

[Casually Red]

Considering his side has just killed a plane load of doctors and children and opened his side up to having Russia and the USA decide to settle their diffrences by seeing who can kill him first he is clutching at straws.

youve no ACTUAL proof of that though, only the narrative of the same western regimes that told us Saddam had WMD and all that stuff. And the claims of the same coup regime that directed passenger jets to fly through a war zone were their aircraft were active dropping bombs on people who are shooting back at them .
Earlier that week they publicly claimed Russian jets were shooting down their aircraft in that very area. but we are to assume they dont bother turning on their air defences to counter it or dissuade it. plus theyre a bunch of fucking nazis capable of anything. And the prime beneficiaries from it. Yet at no stage in the western media are they ever considered as possible suspects. Despite the Ukrainian military having previous form for shooting a passenger aircraft out of the sky some years back and denying doing it for many years afterward.

the facts are we simply dont know the facts, yet that hasnt stopped the narrative being confidently stated as such

 

[Casually Red]

What I can't understand is why commercial airliners were flying over this war zone, where aircraft had been only recently shot down by Surface to Air Missile Systems.

Whats easy to understand is the Kiev regimes air traffic control system directed them there, yet the same regime are stating they know that the Russians have supplied medium range SAM missile systems to the Donetsk republicans. Even if it transpires it wasnt the juntas forces who shot it down they bear some of the responsibility for knowingly directing the plane into a very dangerous area were they admit being aware the republicans had such a missile system in operation. Although theres still no actual proof they even possess such weapons. They deny they do and I havent yet seen any actual proof they do have them

For example I can clearly remember in the aftermath of that Antonov transport being shot down a claim appearing online that it was being flown at a low altitude and unpressurised simply to save money . Similarly migs on low level bombing missions could also have been shot down with manpads. Theres an awful lot of stuff being repeatedly stated as fact in this case that simply hasnt been proven at all .

 

[2hats]

Despite the Ukrainian military having previous form for shooting a passenger aircraft out of the sky some years back and denying doing it for many years afterward.

Siberian 1812? The Ukrainians shot it down by mistake during a training exercise (with Russian personnel in attendance). It took them just over a week to admit it. Ironically (in the context of your reply) the US military called it correctly first and a subsequent investigation by the Russian aviation authorities came to the same conclusion (an internal Russian military report in the first few days agreed with the US assessment).

 

[weltweit]

... the facts are we simply dont know the facts, yet that hasnt stopped the narrative being confidently stated as such

It is true we don't know anything as a fact yet, except we can believe that the plane crashed with the loss of all lives.

 

[belboid]

Actually the Ukrainian military (then headed by someone from the 'Russian' part of Ukraine) denied it for about a week. And Russia quickly came to a settlement.

We don't know who fired this missile yet. But it came from separatist territory. Separatists are the ones who have been firing at planes this last week. And it's separatists who are looting the planes and denying access to competent (non Ukrainian) investigators.

 

[mauvais]

We know plenty. For instance we know that it's two and a half days later, the investigators aren't allowed access and the bodies are rotting in a hot field. Stick that in your whataboutery pipe.