pocketscience
Well-Known Member
To remove otherwise inaccessible dead bodies?
Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine
- Thread starter Fingers
- Start date
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
DM Comic "Nazi Death Trains". Sky news reporters going through pockets or belongings of victims.
Some parts of the media circus are worse/equal behaviour than the people involved on the ground.
Some parts of the media circus are worse/equal behaviour than the people involved on the ground.
Did he not know before rifling through the belongings of plane crash victims?
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
We all know now from recent court cases in UK that some members of the media will do almost anything for a story.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
depends on your view - 'rifling through the belongings of the dead' sounds quite bad, however making sure that a massacre is documented while people who obviously don't want that massacre investigated and documented stand around intimidating the press and OSCE with automatic rifles and talk about sending the flight recorders 'off to Moscow' so they can be properly examined sounds quite good.
picking up family photos and childrens clothing while the smell of 300 gently rotting bodies - nearly a third of them children - fills your nostrals does funny things to pretty much anyone who doesn't have one of the more severe sociopathic disorders. experience helps when dealing with it, but expecting 20/20 perfection in such circumstances is not just unrealistic, its daft.
Ponyutd
Greebo likes this....r.i.p.
He actually says something along the lines of 'I suppose we shouldn't be doing this.' It's just plain wrong, he knew was wrong....and carried on.
I think we can effectively document the unfolding tragedy of the crash without knowing what colour knickers the dead were wearing.
But we also know from the last half century of war reporting and photojournalism that it's vital to bring your own teddy-bear
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Someone here will know this I'm sure, but would a flight recorder be tamper-proof in the sense that if someone had accessed it before the official investigators got their hands on it then they'd be able to tell? Because the separatists (or whoever) hanging on to the things looks extremely dodgy.
2hats
Dust.
They aren't designed to be tamper proof. I doubt someone will be able to tweak the data on them to construct an alternative narrative that fits a particular agenda though without running the risk of all the data streams that are recorded becoming inconsistent with each other - it would take some time to do and require a well equipped expert staffed lab (ie ship them off to Moscow for a few weeks, say). Even then they would risk inconsistency with externally available data that is already in the hands of others - radar, ATC traffic, ACARS. On top of that there are techniques for identifying the original data.
More likely that they 'accidentally' get destroyed to the point of unreadability as a consequence of the renewed military exchanges which are now reaching in to the centre of Donetsk to where the data recorders have reportedly been taken, don't you think?
gosub
~#
Looking like that BAK only entered Ukraine hours before firing, and the first one taken was unservicable at time of capture-previous SAM strikes achieved with shoulder launched.(so 30,000 min ceiling made sense
Looking to me more like unfortunately poor dispersal of intel rather than airspace must stay open. But parts of Ukrainian state did know so thats who the insurance companies will look to to recoup.
gosub
~#
Or they will sit in the safe of the separatist politician until protocols are agreed. I doubt they are as stupid or vile as being made out in western media.
There are some real 1914 parallels here, everyone should take a step back and acknowledge sorting this mess out calmly will take time
2hats
Dust.
Airbus DS and Digitalglobe are releasing satellite imagery of the crash site. The distribution of material/sites might suggest a mode of structural failure and break up not dissimilar to PA103 (likewise the crash videos, and witness reports for what those are worth). In particular the aircraft skin (and other items) exhibit signs consistent with impingement by a fragmenting warhead in proximity to the rear of the flight deck (that is, if the airframe parts have been correctly identified as reported, otherwise it would likely be ahead of the tail at one of two body joins). A thorough catalogue of the distribution of material on the ground would have been important in determining the break up dynamics. The flight data recorders may well not add much more information to the picture (other than totally ruling out a non-external cause).
5t3IIa
Registered User
I saw this live. I agree with you. They'd been back and forth to him live all fucking day. "Uh, we shouldn't really be doing this" and that I <3 Amsterdam t-shirt has certainly been doing the rounds. The journos probably have a tacit agreement that since someone spread it out clearly on the grass, none of the others should touch it. What a hideous fucked-up situation.
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2hats
Dust.
Someone has shot down an airliner either through stupidity or with malicious intent.
The only urgency is in dealing with the bodies. The crash site is compromised to some degree anyway; inspection and sampling of fragments of the airframe will be the other priority. Certain US and Russian agencies most likely already have a good idea as to what actually happened.
Ultimately, one would suspect, the 'weapon' of choice, if any, would be financial? The oligarchs are apparently already twitching:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...aires-in-horror-as-putin-risks-isolation.html
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Yes, but the financial weapon would be painful for everyone. They haven't used the "nuclear option" because it could cause a world-wide recession and Europe hasn't been too keen.
Also and immediately (well, come the winter) because of various European countries' dependence on Russian gas...
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Great. I bet the IMF are already rubbing their hands with glee at that news.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
I'd really like to know why Kiev, who are in charge of air-traffic control, were waiving civilian aircraft on through a conflict zone in which they themselves are engaged in an air campaign. It's either the height of irresponsibility and criminal negligence or something more deliberate. I wouldn't be surprised either way, given the amount of lies and propaganda that have been going on since the beginning of the year. And all the while Cameron is creaming his pants at the possibility of this being a Falklands War moment for him. Elections next year, remember.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I don't think in a post iraq-2 + afghanistan a military adventure will help cameron. He had a good swing at it with syria and lost face.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
You're probably right. Although listening to him pontificate with trumped up 'we must be tough', 'look at me, ever the world statesman' rhetoric, it does seem he might be that stupid. Call Me Dave has never come across as the brightest of sparks, in my opinion.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
e2a: already posted.
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
because they were one only ones flying planes in the war, so they'd know where their planes were, and where was safe. The separatists didn't have any planes, which is (one of the reasons) why claims that Kiev would be shooting at planes is so dubious.
(And, at the same time as saying this - no, of course they shouldn't have been allowing commercial flights through the airpsace, completely bloody stupid)
stowpirate
skinflintish camera nut
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Oh no, I'm not suggesting that Kiev would shoot down a plane. That is as bonkers as thinking that Russia did, or that the separatists blew up the plane in anything other than error. But I can fully imagine a scenario in which rumours are leaked that Kiev are planning an air attack, and so putting the separatists on trigger-happy mode just as a civilian plane is given clearance to fly. All very conspiratorial I know, but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this is what happened.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Eh?
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
tbf the seperatists are dammed if the do or dammed if they dont.
First they were accused of leaving bodies to rot in the summer heat, now the bodies are being recovered they're tampering with evidence.
First they were accused of leaving bodies to rot in the summer heat, now the bodies are being recovered they're tampering with evidence.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What happened before either of these points?
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