Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine

[pocketscience]

What happened before either of these points?

At what point of reference do I start? Adam and Eve or MH17 crashing into the field?

 

[butchersapron]

At what point of reference do I start? Adam and Eve or MH17 crashing into the field?

The bit about the plane being brought down. What possible scenarios it being brought down by separatists might entail and then how this plays out in your they can't do nothing right now matter how hard they try gosh darn it scenario. Ready? Go...

 

[belboid]

tbf the seperatists are dammed if the do or dammed if they dont.
First they were accused of leaving bodies to rot in the summer heat, now the bodies are being recovered they're tampering with evidence.

actually i think there is a general recognition that things have got a lot better over the couple of days - notably once the militiamen were replaced by actual locals. It's the militiamen who strongly appeared to be going through the wreckage and moving whatever they wanted, for whatever reasons. And its the militia leaders (and Moscow) who seem to be slowing down the access of the investigators and people who could preserve the area, and the dead's dignity.

 

[pocketscience]

actually i think there is a general recognition that things have got a lot better over the couple of days - notably once the militiamen were replaced by actual locals. It's the militiamen who strongly appeared to be going through the wreckage and moving whatever they wanted, for whatever reasons. And its the militia leaders (and Moscow) who seem to be slowing down the access of the investigators and people who could preserve the area, and the dead's dignity.

As far as I understand the investigation team (from a recognised aviation authority - faa/easa) arrived at the site only today. I havent seen any reports that the seperatists have been hindering their access to the site? If they have, then yeah, they're cunts. If not then the question should be asked why it took them so long to get there.

 

[mauvais]

Probably pedantry but neither the FAA or EASA investigate accidents AFAIK; they're the regulators, and separate specialist groups like the NTSB or AAIB do crash investigation work.

 

[belboid]

As far as I understand the investigation team (from a recognised aviation authority - faa/easa) arrived at the site only today. I havent seen any reports that the seperatists have been hindering their access to the site? If they have, then yeah, they're cunts. If not then the question should be asked why it took them so long to get there.

It appears to be cos there's still a war going on. The security of the investigators was in doubt. That's not solely down to the separatists/Moscow, by any means. But they do bear the brunt of the responsibility, imo (altho Kievs attack on Donetsk today certainly doesn't show them in a good light, either)

 

[weltweit]

The refrigerated train containing most of the bodies from the crash is on the move.
Apparently the black box recorder (at least one of them) will be handed over to a Malaysian team today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28399670

 

[weltweit]

According to Sky News :

The remains of 282 of the victims are being taken in refrigerated carriages on a train from the rebel-held town of Torez, near the crash site, to the government-controlled city of Kharkiv.

The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam and handed over to Dutch officials.

The black box flight recorders are to be handed over by the rebel leader Alexander Borodai to Malaysian officials in Donetsk, according to the Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak.

http://news.sky.com/story/1304948/mh17-warplane-flew-near-doomed-airliner

 

[2hats]

Malaysia Airlines would appear to have a novel approach to self-preservation (route taken yesterday):

 

[pocketscience]

Sorry if posted already.
Good article from Robert Parry.
http://www.opednews.com/populum/pag...alism_Putin_Russia_Satellites-140720-864.html
If the following claim transpires to be true, it's hard to imagine the ramifications:

What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

 

[butchersapron]

That's what the satellite showed. Uniforms.

Depths.

You'd look a right flakey cunt believing that mind. Wouldn't you? Uniforms ffs.

 

[laptop]

That's what the satellite showed. Uniforms.

Depths.

You'd look a right flakey cunt believing that mind. Wouldn't you? Uniforms ffs.

More magic X-files photo-enhancement.

Why isn't anyone releasing legible images of the name-badges?

 

[goldenecitrone]

You'd think someone might have noticed a group of Ukrainian soldiers shooting down a passenger jet from within Russian separatist-held areas.

 

[butchersapron]

You'd think someone might have noticed a group of Ukrainian soldiers shooting down a passenger jet from within Russian separatist-held areas.

Maybe those uniform identifying satts were off that orbit.

 

[2hats]

Clearly BS. Now, if they had claimed they had spotted bottles of vodka...

 

[pocketscience]

That's what the satellite showed. Uniforms.

Depths.

You'd look a right flakey cunt believing that mind. Wouldn't you? Uniforms ffs.

Yeah, Parry's a right flake cunt, aint he. Esp for publishing that.
Shame he cant be as stringent as you.
Still following Tymochenkos PR stooge on twitter?

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah, Parry's a right flake cunt, aint he. Esp for publishing that.
Shame he cant be as stringent as you.

Serious, you're losing it.

 

[2hats]

The flight data recorders are being handed over to the Malaysians.

 

[laptop]

Clearly BS. Now, if they had claimed they had spotted bottles of vodka...

the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

FFS.

We don't even know there was an optical satellite overhead at any relevant time. A major reason for never discussing what such birds can see is to maintain the mystique. Most of the time, they're not looking at most of the world.

And wasn't it cloudy at the time?

The references to satellite detection that have been released concern an infra-red satellite specialised in detecting launch trails, not ground imagery.

 

[2hats]

The references to satellite detection that have been released concern an infra-red satellite specialised in detecting launch trails, not ground imagery.

IR and radio ELINT.

 

[laptop]

IR and radio ELINT.

Ta.

What radio frequency were those beer bottles tuned to?

 

[pocketscience]

And wasn't it cloudy at the time?

They wouldn't need to have pictures of it on the day of the crash. If they've managed to capture images from the coordinares of the IR data on a sunny day thereafter, then I doubt anyone would refute it
Maybe the gun's still smoking in the images too?[/QUOTE]

 

[laptop]

They wouldn't need to have pictures of it on the day of the crash. If they've managed to capture images from the coordinares of the IR data on a sunny day thereafter, then I doubt anyone would refute it
Maybe the gun's still smoking in the images too?

[/QUOTE]

You seriously believe they can image beer bottles, even under ideal conditions?

 

[pocketscience]

I wouldn't doubt that the US are using other means than satalites to enhance their aerial image capabilities (to id beer bottles, uniforms, shitnstuff)

eta
At least I'd hope so: the amount of western taxpayers money that floods into mil-tech, they should be able to see what brand of beer the cunts were drinking
.

 

[laptop]

I wouldn't doubt that the US are using other means than satalites to enhance their aerial image capabilities (to id beer bottles, uniforms, shitntuff)

Overflying that zone in planes would be very, very stupid. Too stupid even for the USAF.

At least I'd hope so: the amount of western taxpayers money that floods into mil-tech, they should be able to see what brand of beer the cunts were drinking
.

Gotcha. You have no idea of the physics.

 

[weltweit]

I don't find Arseniy Yatsenyuk very convincing.

 

[pocketscience]

Overflying that zone in planes would be very, very stupid. Too stupid even for the USAF.
.

What makes you think that overflying the east of ukraine with a survaillance drone is any more stupid than doing it over iran, iraq, syria, pakistan, afganistan etc?

 

[pocketscience]

Gotcha. You have no idea of the physics.

Physics has fuck all to do with it. A kamikaze mission with a drone is a cheep price to pay if the US have the potential to find the (pro) Russians bang to rights sitting behind a smoking gun no?
In fact a bit of cloud cover would be ideal for such a mission.

 

[weltweit]

Russian General says Russia didn't supply the rebels, claims a Ukranian fighter plane was shadowing MH17 .. and asks why?

 

[2hats]

Russian General says Russia didn't supply the rebels, claims a Ukranian fighter plane was shadowing MH17 .. and asks why?

I watched that press conference - looked like they had gone with the Strangelove 'war room set' theme.

Was intriguing: they seemed to want to put forward several contradictory ideas which even their own radar data refuted. The fighter they identified (Su-25) and the armament it carries aren't up to the task they are suggesting it carried out (and not consistent with the physical evidence thus far) - even if we now pretend it can reach 30kft as per the 'as if by magic' change to the spec on the relevant wikipedia page shortly after the press conference (and contradicting the manufacturer's own data). No prizes for guessing who that edit's attributed to.

Their radar data has the (assumed) Su-25 only popping up briefly after the event, not shadowing MH17.

Then in the same media event they present some optical satellite imagery of what they said were Ukrainian operated BUK missile launchers. Supposedly in the incident area, though that's not very clear, much like the imagery itself.

So I can't work out whether their thesis is that the Ukrainian air force shot it down air-to-air, or the Ukrainians tricked separatists in to shooting it down, or a Ukrainian SAM shot it down.

(Their subsequent discussion of the US IMINT data seemed to highlight a complete lack of understanding of the systems involved, well that clearly in the public domain, and orbital mechanics, which is more than a little odd unless the Russian military is populated with conspiraloons ).