butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The Groznying of East Ghouta - home to 400 000 - is about to begin.
And next, Syria?
- Thread starter Idris2002
- Start date
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Stop watching the news
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Is Don applauding/minimising what has been happening over the last 24 hours I wonder. Fucking psychopaths.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I have no idea what they are actually trying to say.
Just the odd hundred dead civilians in East Ghouta last night - that's going to be the average for some time yet. Haven't seen STWC or the PKK-anarchists out protesting yet.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
There was a meeting of a (new-ish) Kurdish Solidarity Network last weekend, be interested to see what they do/what knots they are going to tie themselves in over these new developments...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The bristol involveds seem to be a rojava support group and nothing else.
teqniq
DisMembered
Ghouta has made it to the headlines in the Graun, which perhaps after all this time may be some measure of exactly how bad it is.
'It's not a war. It's a massacre': scores killed in Syrian enclave
'It's not a war. It's a massacre': scores killed in Syrian enclave
If I am to form a defensible, well thought out opinion on this or any subject, I first need to find out the truth.
If I have nothing to work from but the US/Israeli press and the Daily mail, I can't form any valid opinions because those sources can't be trusted and the fact the secret death squads are on you tube suggests they either aren't very secret or someone is faking stuff.
I have a base opinion that isn't very nice to Assad, but I can't prove my gut thoughts because I can't find reliable witness.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why have you nothing but the US/Israeli press and the Daily mail to work from? You're posting on a thread with 9000 posts and 1000s of links to news reports, investigations and substantive analysis. And it's one of three or four similar threads on here. Just do the research.
teqniq
DisMembered
Jesus H christ, you only have to take the time to read back through this thread, there are plenty of reliable witness accounts linked to by many posters. Oh I see BA has beaten me to it. My point and his still stands though.
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Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
After Erdogan yesterday saying that there would be no “buffer” deployment of Syrian govt aligned troops or militias in Afrin due to a deal with Putin it now seems that some ( figures range from hundreds to 4-5000) NDF forces have crossed into Afrin today and had “warning shots” fired at them by Turkish/Turkish proxy forces allegedly resulting in some deaths. Confused news on this at present- some film on Twitter from a news agency of shelling or bombing near a convoy.
How many posts Vs. how much time? Then add all the stuff available on the internet, much from highly questionable sources.
Every post or piece that claims to provide evidence should be examined for validity, not just accepted because it suits my gut feeling.
To be clear, my thought is very much Assad is a bit of a bastard but that doesn't mean everything that's printed about him or his people are true.
What's better, an educated opinion based on verifiable or likely accurate evidence, or blind acceptance of everything that happens to suit my point of view?
Only a fool would base his or her opinion on the latter, the sort of person that would accept Saddam had WMDs because they didn't like his version of government. It's the same for Assad's gas attacks, they were reported by people working for or funded by a nation that is known to have used chemical weapons on a massive scale in other countries, and the same country that reported Saddam's non-existent chemical weapons.
One has to take all news with a pinch of salt until it's verified as best as possible in a world of twisted information.
Moving to the terrible crisis in Syria, I want to know the human story, the stuff that's hardly seen on the news such as how the electricity supply problems effect schooling, even in areas of the country where there's no military action. Syria appears to get quite cold in their winter, temperatures dropping to what must be very cold when you're used to around 30 degrees, so what about heating in schools and what effects are seen in hospitals and other essential services.
More directly to battle sites, are civilians allowed to leave in ceasefires, or are civilians deliberately targeted by snipers as we saw in Bosnia. Who is actually responsible for gas attacks, if they ever actually happened. We're assured the government forces committed these crimes but we also know Israel has been bombing Syria.
Who exactly are the rebel forces and, apart from their obvious goal of removing Assad, what else do they want?
These righteous rebels are painted as heroes fighting against evil, but are they just as evil themselves, or is their goal to introduce true democracy into Syria if they win the day?
We are clear the war has killed by the thousands, many civilians being hurt by the fighting, but has anyone asked if the war is worth it to get rid of Assad. He seems to be a killer, but the war has killed a lot more people and caused a lot more damage than he was ever likely to manage.
One last point, why didn't the US simply drop a cruise on his head instead of supporting a war? Russia's intentions are clear, but the US could remove Assad any time they want and no one could stop them, so why didn't they if that's their true intent?
A cynic might well claim the war is there to destabilise the area, that and sell a lot of weapons to however will buy them.
A lot of cash in arms sales, and a lot of people in congress who take bribes from arms dealers.
Pravda, or just happy to believe any shit that suits you?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Get fucked
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I have no idea why the repetition of pravada in your posts is there. I know what the word means and i understand what the concept means - but it has no relevance to my posts on this thread.
The uprising is 7 years old to the month. Most accounts date it to 15th march 2011 - the date that protesters first appeared on the streets of damascus - but there had been ongoing protests since jan 26th when Hasan Ali Akleh set himself on fire in al-Hasakah. In fact those initial protests were to demand the release of people detained and tortured for participating in prior protests. In the intervening 7 years there has been millions of words wrote on exactly those sort of questions you ask. The four books i would recommend you read in formulating your own answers are:
Burning Country: Syrians in Revolution and War Paperback – Robin Yassin-Kassab and Leila Al-Shami
Khiyana: Daesh, the Left and the Unmaking of the Syrian Revolution Paperback – Jules Alford (Editor), Andy WIlson (Editor)
The Impossible Revolution: Making Sense of the Syrian Tragedy Paperback – Yassin al-Haj Saleh
The Syrian Jihad: Al-Qaeda, the Islamic State and the Evolution of an Insurgency Paperback – Charles R. Lister
Incidentally, there will be the annual march in london next month in solidarity with the uprising. There will barely be a few hundred people there. Mostly syrian exiles. There will be no left contingent, no organised homegrown support for the revolutionary ideals of the Local Coordination Committees of Syria and other progressive developments within the uprising. The very same day, every leftist and liberal in london and many from outside (the ones not watching the england ireland game anyway) will be on the march against racism - thousands and thousands. This, and the silence about East Ghouta whilst shouting about Afrin is a good example of what Leila Al Shami calls selective solidarity.
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HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
that's more comradely than I managed, the last two books mentioned I've read, seconded. Get reading Don.
Thanks for that.
I'm unsure who committed these crimes, or even if they weren't set up for the cameras as I have no reliable sources.
Remember how flight 665 was heading towards the ship and not responding to radio warnings? I wonder how many people believed that total shit.
As for these gas attacks, Tillison is using 'suspected gas attacks' and blaming Russia for their use because it supports Syria, but Russia says they hit a rebel weapons facility, that causing the gas to be released. Eye witness reports talk of a cloud of yellow something, but sarin (The claimed agent in that case) is colourless.
So, assuming deaths from sarin occurred, and post morts seems to suggest they did, there are two credible stories as to how the gas was released. Other reports have witness statements about helicopters dropping chemical agents but the timing is hours out when compared to other evidence. Then we come to who claims the attacks happened, and they are all US funded groups.
Poor quality mustard gas, thought to be used by the rebels, is yellow.
So, if Sarin was used, why do eye witness reports claim it was yellow?
I remain convinced Assad is duff in a million ways, but that doesn't mean I blindly accept any shit claimed against him, especially when the shit's evidence is full of contradictions and comes from people being well paid by the Americans but don't know the details of the US claims they're supporting, get important details wrong, and can't seen to get their times right.
"Get fucked" is a poor argument, offering nothing to convince anyone of the validity of your argument. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If, as you repeatedly insist, you are ill-informed and lacking in background knowledge of the conflict, then why are you posting ill-informed contributions lacking in basic background knowledge? Why aren't you cracking on with getting informed?
teqniq
DisMembered
Personally it's starting to look like yet another transparent troll attempting to divert attention away from current events. It's not like this hasn't been gone over at length before on this thread and the links are all there. Moreover gas attacks were meant to be a 'red line' for the US but when they happened nothing was done by the Obama administration. Meanwhile carnage is and has been wrought with conventional weaponry on a far greater scale than the gas attacks.
The details of the first protests are pretty much undisputed so I have no issues with them and these are the main source for my disdain for Assad.
I've quoted the books in order to be able to reference them more easily. I'll start by looking at the authors, their biographies and where they get paid from. Once I've seem they aren't US or Israeli funded, I'll take a look at their works.
It simply means, "Truth", something we all should search for. I rather hope it applies to all your posts as I hope it does mine.
A troll is now defined as someone attempting to learn the truth, even if he or she is equally against the person you also claim to attack.
The 'red line' was stated by Obama but they have offered no real evidence, and not even close enough to convince the public in a post WMD bullshit world. Yes, Assad is a bastard, and yes, he very probably would use chemical weapons, but that doesn't mean he actually did in the many cases we hear off, more so considering the poor quality evidence we have to 'prove' it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You don't appear to have any idea of what the evidence is. And you are conflating different chemical attacks. Stop posting on this until you've done some proper research.
I am, but it's like walking through mud as there id so much dodgy information out there and, when it comes to looking for references, the sources are commonly less than disinterested. Of course this is a war and information is often going to come from parties with an agenda of their own, but the involvement of external powers such as Russia and the US, two countries with excellent bullshitting skills using the internet, this one is hard work.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
That does seem to be this war's "thing" - where things like gas, home-made mortars and barrel bombs are seen as indefensibly barbaric but a 500-kg high explosive bomb is not.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
As you've already stated, that Sarin was used has been confirmed by autopsy reports etc. Mushroom clouds are made up of debris and smoke etc, caused by the impact so it would hardly be colourless.
Good thread here, posted prior to confirmation Sarin was used.
hat's an excellent link but brings me to another link
April 4, 2017 Khan Sheikhoun Sarin attack
Syria chemical 'attack': What we know
If it was Sarin, why the yellow cloud as Sarin is couourless?
Sarin disperses after 10 to 15 minutes but the US funded press group reported rescue workers taken to hospital after arriving at the scene around 30 minutes after the release.
You have to ask why these eye witness stories don't match the attack details as given by the press. After that, what about Carla Del Ponte's allegations about the Syria free army? Did they do it deliberately or, as her suggestions have been buried, aren't you aware of them?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Oh and "get fucked" was an expression of disgust and unwillingness to be involved in the merry dance, one which I stand by.
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