And next, Syria?

[Casually Red]

Oh god your not another Assad apologist are you.

righto..i should pretend these punters arent armed and funded by Saudi and Qatar . That theyre waving placards at gunships . Otherwise thats straying outrageously off message .Cop onto yourself. Alaistair fucking campbell .

 

[Casually Red]

so some bonkers Islamists are the only credible resistance to Israeli aggression. You're be swearing allegiance to Al-Qa'ida next. I don't support any Islamists anywhere in the world because I am a secular socialist.

secular socialists in Lebanon were fighting and dying alongside these "bonkers islamists" as you refer to them during the last Zionist invasion of lebanon, and regularly co-operate with them . All sections of Lebanese society regard HB as the Lebanese national resistance . Because they simply are the only credible resistance in that region . Regardless of British standards of political correctness .

 

[goldenecitrone]

that would be heavily armed activists , sponsored, funded and armed overtly by Qatar and Saudi Arabia . Basically Al Qaeda and a host of other Salafist derivatives who are the cheif beneficiaries of this financial and logistical largesse . With the NATO powers chomping at the bit to get in there and bomb the place too .

Your shyness at addressing the perfectly bleeding obvious bit in this equation looks suspiciously like you giving us the impression HIND gunships are being deployed against people with placards . As opposed to heavily armed Saudi proxies .

You agree with slaughtering activists, too. Not a surprise.

 

[IC3D]

righto..i should pretend these punters arent armed and funded by Saudi and Qatar . That theyre waving placards at gunships . Otherwise thats straying outrageously off message .Cop onto yourself. Alaistair fucking campbell .

An Arab can't even pick up an AK47 anymore without some apologist in Europe denouncing him as a terrorist. Your position is hardly unique apologist.

 

[Casually Red]

You agree with slaughtering activists, too. Not a surprise.

please explain to us why you dont like pointing out the very obvious thing these activists have in common

 

[Casually Red]

An Arab can't even pick up an AK47 anymore without some apologist in Europe denouncing him as a terrorist. Your position is hardly unique apologist.

my post regarding Hezbollah above would illustrate that your talking a load of shite /clutching at straws etc.

 

[IC3D]

my post regarding Hezbollah above would illustrate that your talking a load of shite /clutching at straws etc.

Hezbollah eh, the proxies for Iran and Syria. Hypocrite

 

[Knotted]

I don't know which is worse - apologists for the regime or apologists for the Free Syrian Army. In the West it's probably the latter - the former are at least going against the grain. Exposing the crimes, the lies and exagerations of one shouldn't be allowed to lead to support for the other. Those who support the regime because of the regime's funding of Hezbollah need their heads looking at, though. It was the same regime that invaded Lebanon and murdered Palestinians and leftists in 1976.

 

[Casually Red]

I have no difficulty whatsoever accepting that Hezbollah are armed and funded by both Iran and Syria , as its in both Irans and Syrias interests to do so . Thats not hypocritical . Nor is it hypocritical in the slightest for me to point out that all sections of Lebanese society regard Hezbollah as the Lebanese national resistance , because thats what the Lebanese media , Lebanese government and Lebanese national army refer to them as . Its simply a fact .

What would be hypocritical though is me pretending theyre only "activists" when they are patently armed to the teeth. As you and that other eejit have been doing, repeatedly, as regards the Saudi proxies in Syria .

 

[Casually Red]

I don't know which is worse - apologists for the regime or apologists for the Free Syrian Army. In the West it's probably the latter - the former are at least going against the grain. Exposing the crimes, the lies and exagerations of one shouldn't be allowed to lead to support for the other. Those who support the regime because of the regime's funding of Hezbollah need their heads looking at, though. It was the same regime that invaded Lebanon and murdered Palestinians and leftists in 1976.

are you suggesting..in all seriousness..that Palestinians and leftists in 2012 Lebanon would be better off if the main source and conduit of funds and military equipment for the Lebanese national resistance was to be eliminated and the zionists able to come and go there as they please ?

 

[Knotted]

are you suggesting..in all seriousness..that Palestinians and leftists in 2012 Lebanon would be better off if the main source and conduit of funds and military equipment for the Lebanese national resistance was to be eliminated and the zionists able to come and go there as they please ?

They probably won't be - but
1) I doubt it would make much difference.
2) Palestinians and Lebanese need more solid support than a power that can turn on them in the blinking of an eye. They deserve better. There cause is best served by the Arab peoples across the region and this is one reason why it's such a tradgedy that the Syrian revolt has been diverted down sectarian lines.
3) There is still the matter of Syrian civilians - they definitely deserve better than Assad.

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="Knotted, post: 11377463, member: 11986

They probably won't be - but

if they cant defend themselves , get access to medicine and clinics or rebuild destroyed infrastructure theres no probably about it.

1) I doubt it would make much difference.

whats the reason for your doubt ? Where else is this going to come from on one of the poorest countries on earth ? The moon ? Martians ? The socialist international ?

2) Palestinians and Lebanese need more solid support than a power that can turn on them in the blinking of an eye. They deserve better. There cause is best served by the Arab peoples across the region .

purely wishful thinking . Should we not be dealing with reality ?

and this is one reason why it's such a tradgedy that the Syrian revolt has been diverted down sectarian lines

when was it diverted ? and by whom ?

3) There is still the matter of Syrian civilians - they definitely deserve better than Assad.

they probably do , but the fact is a great many of them also support him . And its a straight choice between him and Saudi as to whos going to be running syria tomorrow . And if Saudi gain control then its in their self interest to ensure that the sunni minority in Lebanon become empowered , or failing that that the entire place goes up in smoke to limit Iranian influebnce even further . Those are the current choices.

 

[IC3D]

 

[Casually Red]

your point ?

 

[IC3D]

You like pictures so I posted one of some activists in Syria.

 

[Casually Red]

pointless

 

[Knotted]

whats the reason for your doubt ? Where else is this going to come from on one of the poorest countries on earth ? The moon ? Martians ? The socialist international ?

Most obviously, Iran.

purely wishful thinking . Should we not be dealing with reality ?

Reality changes. That's our object. Assad's regime is a block on the Arab revolts across the region. It backed the Saudi invasion of Bahrain for example. The Saudis may not be backing Assad but Assad is still craven towards the Saudis (and the Israelis for that matter - what have the Ba'athists done about the Golan Heights?)

when was it diverted ? and by whom ?

When? Throughout the latter half of last year. By whom? Various actors - mainly the GCC countries, Turkey, the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood (and their collaborators in the SNC).

they probably do , but the fact is a great many of them also support him . And its a straight choice between him and Saudi as to whos going to be running syria tomorrow . And if Saudi gain control then its in their self interest to ensure that the sunni minority in Lebanon become empowered , or failing that that the entire place goes up in smoke to limit Iranian influebnce even further . Those are the current choices.

Why accept the current choices? The current choices in Britain are Labour and Tory. I've never accepted that choice.

 

[goldenecitrone]

please explain to us why you dont like pointing out the very obvious thing these activists have in common

Fighting for their lives against a murderous regime. Why do you support the torture of children and the massacres of civilians?

 

[goldenecitrone]

The only two people in the world who believe in the legitimacy of Assad's rule are CR and Assad himself and even Assad is starting to have his doubts.

 

[elbows]

The Turkey-Kurdish dimension got a bit of press attention today, this one is via AlJazeera Syria liveblog:

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday Turkey could act against a "terrorist" organisation in northern Syria if it sees it as a threat, referring to outlawed Kurdish militants.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan's comments Thursday follow reports that Kurdish rebels and the Democratic Union Party of Syria took control of five cities along the Syrian-Turkish border.

"We will not allow a terrorist group to establish camps in northern Syria and threaten Turkey," Erdogan told a news conference.

"If there is a step which needs to be taken against the terrorist group, we will definitely take this step," he said.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and those close to him were about to leave power and preparations are underway for a "new era" in Turkey's southern neighbour, Erdogan said before departing for London.

Given that Russia is also making noises about the west enabling terrorists, I do wonder how much damage the response to the arab spring has done to the propaganda opportunities that come from playing with labels such as terrorist and freedom fighter. The double-think has always been on display but seems to have been magnified to outstanding levels of obviousness in the last few years?

 

[thriller]

These "rebels" must be crushed before they win Aleppo. Last thing we want is another Wahhabi
funded influenced government in the world. These saudi bastards are the main cause of the spread off fundy islam in the world. Look any trouble spot in the world, and they have their filthy mittens somewhere. Is Syria does fall, Assad should try transfer as much weapons to Hezbollah as possible. I fear for Iran and the shias of the middle east if these troublesome sunnis succeed.

 

[Knotted]

Is Syria does fall, Assad should try transfer as much weapons to Hezbollah as possible.

Yeah, that's the thing Assad is most concerned about. Hezbollah and Lebanonese civilians not his own skin.

I fear for Iran and the shias of the middle east if these troublesome sunnis succeed.

I don't. I fear for all religious minorities in Syria and Lebanon - but it won't make much difference to shias in Bahrain for example. The Ba'athist regime supported the Saudi invasion. But the significant thing for Assad apologists is that they can't show any concern for Syrians - not even victims of the opposition forces.

 

[elbows]

This article probably has some flaws but it may provide a few details that have not often been considered. It includes a bit about other countries interests, and a possible regime plan b of retreating to an Alawite enclave.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/07/2012730103733476503.html

 

[camouflage]

This article probably has some flaws but it may provide a few details that have not often been considered. It includes a bit about other countries interests, and a possible regime plan b of retreating to an Alawite enclave.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/07/2012730103733476503.html

Al Jazeera; sad. They used to be an excellent bastion of news reporting, I guess since Libya they've had their credibility 'cashed in' as it were by the Qatar regime and used-up as an invaluable propaganda tool. They are now considered on the Arab Street to be no better than the BBC or CNN or any other Washington-Consensus message organ, or so I've heard anyway.

Did you see that report where Al Jaz was shown falsifying the situation on the ground in Syria and broadcasting the ham-fisted lies of 'guerilla journalists'? Let's face it, any image featuring an injured child lying in a hospital bed and giving the victory sign or saying something disparaging about Assad or encouraging about the rebels is just one more despicable use of children in this war. An injured child does not bravely raise it's little chin and spout any kind of political message unless so instructed to do, 'just so, like this, good girl, now again for the camera...'

 

[elbows]

Im sure AlJazeera has always been a propaganda tool, its just that until recent years there werent so many high-stakes events going on in that part of the world that would test its credibility in such an obvious manner. And most other TV channels in the area were so blatant with their bias that it was not terribly difficult to build up credibility by comparison, just unleash journalists who 'care about their professions values' to do their usual thing.

Personally I think its better for people to be cynical about media, so if lots of people are now less likely to take AlJazeera coverage at face value then thats no bad thing. I expect opinions on the nature of their bias vary somewhat, and I cant comprehend their arabic channel so I cant do proper analysis. One particular version of the bias theory has it that Qatar seeks influence in many of the arab spring countries after the fighting stage by funding the muslim brotherhood, so some people were laughing at the election results in Libya. Qatar certainly has an array of ambitions but I need language skills I dont have to probe the full depths of this.

 

[elbows]

On the subject of propaganda, theres an attempt to get a story going that the new Saudi intelligence chief, who was promoted to the post shortly after the Damascus bombing which took out various Syrian regime figures, has been assassinated by Syria in revenge. The chances of this being true are not very high, its far more likely old-fashioned propaganda, but if it were true it would be interesting since this guy was almost like an adopted son to George Bush senior, even being nicknamed Bandar Bush during his high-profile time as a diplomat in the US.

Check him out talking about corruption some years back before he largely vanished off the radar till now. What a performance.



Profile: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/uk-saudi-princebandar-idUKBRE86J12T20120720

 

[TomUS]

These "rebels" must be crushed before they win Aleppo. Last thing we want is another Wahhabi
funded influenced government in the world. These saudi bastards are the main cause of the spread off fundy islam in the world. Look any trouble spot in the world, and they have their filthy mittens somewhere. Is Syria does fall, Assad should try transfer as much weapons to Hezbollah as possible. I fear for Iran and the shias of the middle east if these troublesome sunnis succeed.

The Assad dynasty must be crushed. Time for it's it's tyranny to end. "If Syria does fall..." ??? Syria is not the Alawite minority & the Assad dictatorship. I observed it in person years ago when daddy was the boss. Never saw such a cult of personality oppressive government. The Praetorian guard strut around the streets of Damascus with machine guns slung over their shoulders & wear arm patches with images of the ruling family embroidered on them. The rebels must hold Aleppo.

 

[teqniq]

Worth a read, from the Graun:

Al-Qaida turns tide for rebels in battle for eastern Syria

As they stood outside the commandeered government building in the town of Mohassen, it was hard to distinguish Abu Khuder's men from any other brigade in the Syrian civil war, in their combat fatigues, T-shirts and beards.

But these were not average members of the Free Syrian Army. Abu Khuder and his men fight for al-Qaida. They call themselves the ghuraba'a, or "strangers", after a famous jihadi poem celebrating Osama bin Laden's time with his followers in the Afghan mountains, and they are one of a number of jihadi organisations establishing a foothold in the east of the country now that the conflict in Syria has stretched well into its second bloody year.....

 

[elbows]

Worth a read, from the Graun:

Al-Qaida turns tide for rebels in battle for eastern Syria

Cheers, that was interesting, presenting several human aspects in a way most articles about Syria fail to do so without resorting to the most basic cliches. Which is kind of funny since the term Al-Qaida usually leads articles away from truth illumination and towards hysterical propaganda.

In the case of a number of arab spring countries, beard analysis is more about the political movements like the Muslim Brotherhood, and how this story is usually more about them being 'brothers of the 1%' than about limb removal or improvised explosive devices. If we are really lucky then we even get to hear about workers struggling. In Yemen the term Al-Qaida was being applied in the context we've been familiar with since 9/11, mixed in with existing regional civil war and effort to topple a regime. But in other places where regime-removal became violent, such as Libya and Syria, hastily imagined post-conflict Islamist terror & political control concerns which stem from some of the fighting groups being Islamists, should not be taken too far. It should not for example be used to declare confidently that islamists will take over once the regime has collapsed.

One of the reasons why such concerns should be moderated is that a substantial proportion of people including the large young demographic are indeed more interested in sitting around smoking cigarettes and gossiping than engaging in holy war and religious policing, and we catch a few brief glimpses of this in that article. That certainly seems to have been a real factor in the case of Libya, which in its armed phase featured some fears of islamists from a few quarters, contrasted with almost total since on the issue from those who were well into the NATO side of the struggle. For that side any islamists were almost as invisible as the foreign operatives on the ground. But in the post-Gaddafi environment the Islamists & friends of Qatar didnt exactly storm to victory (although its quite possible Qatar etc backed more than one horse). While the situation in Syria has a different set of complex factors which will hardly make a post-regime situation a glorious, stable and democratic thing, assumptions about Al-Qaida and friends would be unwise. The array of powerful countries with interests past & present in Syria boggles my mind far more at this point, but even my loathing of the house of Saud does not mean I can get too carried away with predictions about how much control they'll end up with over Syria when the dust settles.

 

[thriller]

these are the vermins everyone is cheering for:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/syrian-rebels-execute-pro-regime-militia-201013356.html