Alex Jones - Two Stops Past Barking?

[planetgeli]

I'm not "fine" with people calling Sandy Hook a hoax. But as it happens I do think holocaust denial should be legal. Free speech issues aside, its illegality hardly stops it.

Illegality doesn't stop murder and rape so may as well rescind those laws too.

You claim not to be a free speech absolutist. I think there's something thinner than a blue rizla between your position and that of absolutism.

 

[planetgeli]

Please someone apply all these arguments to Fox News. Their lies have caused more harm to more people. They've helped to incite riots, murders, oppression, prejudice, hate...

This isn't an either/or.

 

[Knotted]

But this isn't Holocaust denial. To continue the analogy, it's that plus encouraging harassment and attacks on anyone that says they had someone murdered in the Holocaust, and then some specific individuals have had their lives ruined by these attacks and harassment, and someone has encouraged and enabled that from the very start for money and political capital. To then say, 'Oh it's free speech to be able to deny that happened' is massively missing the point.

Well yuwipi woman made the point that you can't separate out the denialism from the incitement. I'm not inclined to agree but I'm going to give it some thought. Obviously these attacks and his encouragement of these attacks are utterly despicable.

 

[Knotted]

Illegality doesn't stop murder and rape so may as well rescind those laws too.

You claim not to be a free speech absolutist. I think there's something thinner than a blue rizla between your position and that of absolutism.

My position is that the more free speech visa vie the state generally the better, with the exception of incitement and partial exception of defamation*. Not because free speech is inherently great but because there is no democratic control over how the laws are used. Honestly I'm amazed this is a minority position on here.

*This is open to revision.

 

[weltweit]

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy ..

Well it could in fact but if they were nicer they probably wouldn't be such an asshole to lie about it in the first place.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Please someone apply all these arguments to Fox News. Their lies have caused more harm to more people. They've helped to incite riots, murders, oppression, prejudice, hate...

Fox News has been sued multiple times. Their most current suit is for $2.7 billion dollars by a voting machine company after Fox claimed that the machines were rigged:

Fox News Won’t Be Getting Out of a $2.7 Billion Lawsuit Over Its Rigged Voting Machine Claims

An election technology company’s case against Fox News can move forward, with a judge finding “substantial basis” for the claim that Murdoch’s network “evinced a reckless disregard for the truth.”

www.vanityfair.com

The problem with suing the bastards is that it takes money to do that, and it's beyond the means of average people. And, as the point was made upthread, they consider lawsuits just the cost of doing business.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

My position is that the more free speech visa vie the state generally the better, with the exception of incitement and partial exception of defamation*. Not because free speech is inherently great but because there is no democratic control over how the laws are used. Honestly I'm amazed this is a minority position on here.

*This is open to revision.

No one has actually made that argument.

 

[lazythursday]

That would be fine if we were talking about events he was involved in. It's not like he would be saying he did something when in reality he did something else. This is a take on news events. That a court can demand under penalty of perjury that you take a certain position on news events is indeed alarming.

edit: I am reconsidering wrt to Yuwipi Woman 's posts

I don't see how the court 'demanded' that Jones admit Sandy Hook was real. He was surely able to continue claiming it was a hoax, but clearly decided that wouldn't help his case.

 

[LDC]

Yeah, that was one of Knotted's errors/misunderstandings, nobody 'made him' say it was real, he just grudgingly rowed back on his hoax thing as even for him it looked totally untenable in front of the crying parents.

 

[Knotted]

I don't see how the court 'demanded' that Jones admit Sandy Hook was real. He was surely able to continue claiming it was a hoax, but clearly decided that wouldn't help his case.

I'm just going by what the news is saying

Under oath and facing a jury that could hit him with $150 million or more in damages for his false claims, Jones said Wednesday he now realizes that was irresponsible and believes that what happened in the deadliest school shooting in American history was “100% real.”

Alex Jones concedes Sandy Hook attack was '100% real'

Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones says he now understands he was irresponsible to declare the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre a hoax, and he now believes it was “100% real.”

apnews.com

And yes it's kinda satisfying to see. But still, it's pretty alarming.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

And he's still at it on his show, but has added Judge Maya Guerra Gamble, George Soros, a forensic accountant, etc to the list:

Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones immediately took to the airwaves after the verdict in his defamation trial on Friday - which will see him be forced to pay nearly $50million in damages to the family of slain six-year-old Jesse Lewis.

Lewis was among the 20 children who were shot dead by crazed gunman Adam Lanza at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, in December 2012. Another six people were killed in the massacre.

For years Jones claimed on his InfoWars platform that the shooting in Newton was a 'false flag' operation perpetrated by the US government to further gun control.

In his Friday broadcast, Jones claimed the trial against him was 'coordinated and run' by billionaire philanthropist George Soros and 'operatives.' He did not identify the other 'operatives' by name.

The host also accused Judge Maya Guerra Gamble of being a 'blue-haired SJW' and insinuated that she was corrupt by saying that she 'altered the record of the trial.' 'SJW' stands for Social Justice Warrior.
Next in the firing line was forensic economist Bernard Pettingill, who on Friday testified that he believed Alex Jones' net worth to be close to $270 million.

Pettingill testified on behalf of Lewis' parents that Jones 'promulgated some hate speech and some misinformation' and 'made a lot of money.'

Jones referred to 'Pettingil' as being 'dandruff covered' and that he looked as though he was wearing a wig. Jones also that Pettingill looked at him like 'he wanted to kill' him.

Speaking about his supposed Pettingil's testimony, Jones said that his team were forbidden from calling a rebuttal expert and were only allowed to cross-examine.

He denied having a net worth anything close to what Pettingil alleged. Jones said that his net worth was less than $5 million.

Alex Jones says defamation trial was 'COORDINATED' by George Soros

Alex Jones took to the airwaves after the verdict in his defamation trial on Friday - which will see him be forced to pay nearly $50million in damages to the family of slain six-year-old Jesse Lewis.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Why am I not surprised?

 

[LDC]

I'm just going by what the news is saying

Alex Jones concedes Sandy Hook attack was '100% real'

Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones says he now understands he was irresponsible to declare the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre a hoax, and he now believes it was “100% real.”

apnews.com

And yes it's kinda satisfying to see. But still, it's pretty alarming.

Nowhere does it say he 'was made' to admit it was true. Are you reading the same things as the rest of us?!

 

[andysays]

I'm just going by what the news is saying

Alex Jones concedes Sandy Hook attack was '100% real'

Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones says he now understands he was irresponsible to declare the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre a hoax, and he now believes it was “100% real.”

apnews.com

And yes it's kinda satisfying to see. But still, it's pretty alarming.

No, you've misunderstood (again) what the report you've read is actually saying.

 

[Karl Masks]

And he's still at it on his show, but has added Judge Maya Guerra Gamble, George Soros, a forensic accountant, etc to the list:

Alex Jones says defamation trial was 'COORDINATED' by George Soros

Alex Jones took to the airwaves after the verdict in his defamation trial on Friday - which will see him be forced to pay nearly $50million in damages to the family of slain six-year-old Jesse Lewis.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Why am I not surprised?

Surely, at this point, that's actionable?

 

[planetgeli]

Knotted here's the video of Jones being forced to admit Sandy Hook was real. They've got him in an orange jumpsuit and everything.

‘It’s 100% real’: Alex Jones admits Sandy Hook shooting wasn't faked – video

Infowars host Alex Jones conceded that the Sandy Hook shooting was '100% real', admitting it was irresponsible to call it a hoax.

www.theguardian.com

 

[David Clapson]

Fox News has been sued multiple times. Their most current suit is for $2.7 billion dollars by a voting machine company after Fox claimed that the machines were rigged:

Fox News Won’t Be Getting Out of a $2.7 Billion Lawsuit Over Its Rigged Voting Machine Claims

An election technology company’s case against Fox News can move forward, with a judge finding “substantial basis” for the claim that Murdoch’s network “evinced a reckless disregard for the truth.”

www.vanityfair.com

The problem with suing the bastards is that it takes money to do that, and it's beyond the means of average people. And, as the point was made upthread, they consider lawsuits just the cost of doing business.

As the resident American here, do you think Fox News is a product of American values, or has it changed them? I know it's a chicken and egg question, but in my imagination there was a time before Fox News (and before shock jocks) when there were more Americans with balanced, wholesome views.

Or maybe the opposite is true....before Fox News there were fewer rights for women, racial minorities LGBTQ+ people and so on, and the public demand for Fox News has been triggered by mainstream acceptance that these groups deserve more rights.

 

[planetgeli]

And he's still at it on his show, but has added Judge Maya Guerra Gamble, George Soros, a forensic accountant, etc to the list:

Alex Jones says defamation trial was 'COORDINATED' by George Soros

Alex Jones took to the airwaves after the verdict in his defamation trial on Friday - which will see him be forced to pay nearly $50million in damages to the family of slain six-year-old Jesse Lewis.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Why am I not surprised?

Fuck George Soros' life. I couldn't do 1% of the things he does.

 

[Knotted]

Nowhere does it say he 'was made' to admit it was true. Are you reading the same things as the rest of us?!

He stated in court that it happened. Are you saying that this wasn't under duress? He just freely admitted that he got everything wrong? I think that's a bit out character!

 

[stdP]

He stated in court that it happened. Are you saying that this wasn't under duress? He just freely admitted that he got everything wrong? I think that's a bit out character!

Regardless of whether you think it's out of character or not*, are you saying that admission of anything in court is de facto under duress?

* I don't think it is out of character TTBOMK. Most loudmouthed blowhards shite it in front of a judge and jury who are putting their flim-flam under a microscope. Jones is a high-flying bullshit merchant dropping his pearls of wisdom like a cow in a microlight, nothing more, nothing less. And deep down he knows it.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

As the resident American here, do you think Fox News is a product of American values, or has it changed them? I know it's a chicken and egg question, but in my imagination there was a time before Fox News (and before shock jocks) when there were more Americans with balanced, wholesome views.

Or maybe the opposite is true....before Fox News there were fewer rights for women, racial minorities LGBTQ+ people and so on, and the public demand for Fox News has been triggered by mainstream acceptance that these groups deserve more rights.

I think it has fragmented American values. This is the value system of a minority. If you look at its history, it was designed to do this. Fox News is actually a product of the Nixon administration. Richard Nixon wanted a news service that echoed his policies. It wasn't technically possible at the time, but with the rise of cable news, it not only became possible, but fairly inexpensive. Its founder was a former Nixon administration staffer for a reason. It was helped along with changes at the FCC during the Reagan administration. This has all had a synergistic effect on the public. Repeating the same misinformation over and over, changes the values, which increases Fox News ratings because people are attracted to the dramatic way the news is presented.

 

[planetgeli]

No they waterboarded him first.

As we've entered the theatre of the absurd.

 

[Knotted]

Regardless of whether you think it's out of character or not*, are you saying that admission of anything in court is de facto under duress?

* I don't think it is out of character TTBOMK. Most loudmouthed blowhards shite it in front of a judge and jury who are putting their flim-flam under a microscope. Jones is a high-flying bullshit merchant dropping his pearls of wisdom like a cow in a microlight, nothing more, nothing less. And deep down he knows it.

Surely yes, of course statements of admission in court are made usually under duress. That's why they're in court!

But OK if he's (and he probably is) a blowhard who doesn't really believe what he says and retreats in order to mitigate his case, he's still having to perform this particular retreat in order to mitigate his case.

 

[stdP]

Surely yes, of course statements of admission in court are made usually under duress. That's why they're in court!

But OK if he's (and he probably is) a blowhard who doesn't really believe what he says and retreats in order to mitigate his case, he's still having to perform this particular retreat in order to mitigate his case.

I'm hoping you must have a very different definition of "duress" to mine (and the legal one too for that matter). But then I suppose I've never been in the dock at the mercy of Justice "Knuckles" Kneecapper.

 

[Knotted]

I'm hoping you must have a very different definition of "duress" to mine (and the legal one too for that matter). But then I suppose I've never been in the dock at the mercy of Justice "Knuckles" Kneecapper.

That's the legal definition of duress as relates to a defence which isn't really relevant. But OK I overstated the case when I said he was under threat of perjury. My bad, but the point still remains.

 

[two sheds]

If Sandy Hook hadn't happened and he was a principled man, he could have refused in Court to say that it had. But it did happen, which is why he admitted it. Hardly duress.

 

[JimW]

Cognisant he was under oath and the data dump showed he was lying consciously.

 

[Knotted]

If Sandy Hook hadn't happened and he was a principled man, he could have refused in Court to say that it had. But it did happen, which is why he admitted it. Hardly duress.

Not saying this is an equivalent thing, but applying your principle. Would you say forcing a christian to abandon God, could not be duress because there is no God?

 

[Knotted]

Cognisant he was under oath and the data dump showed he was lying consciously.

But this is the thing. Whether he was deliberately lying or not should not be relevant if free speech is being upheld. You can lie about events. That's free speech! And the fact that he was lying has no bearing on the fact that he unleashed his hordes on these poor people.

 

[JimW]

But this is the thing. Whether he was deliberately lying or not should not be relevant if free speech is being upheld. You can lie about events. That's free speech! And the fact that he was lying has no bearing on the fact that he unleashed his hordes on these poor people.

But he can't lie under oath about a belief that evidence shows he does in fact hold despite cynically claiming otherwise (and weaponising that claim)

 

[lazythursday]

But he's still free to lie about Sandy Hook. Just not to allege defamatory things about named individuals. Well, he's free to do that as well if he's willing to keep shelling out millions.