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I know there is a discussion going on in the Iran thread regarding the UIA crash but as its in p&p and that is likely to be a different conversation than one we can have here. Also it doesn't seem right using the 737 max thread as its clearly a different plane but...

Whichever way you look at it it's another new 737 that has crashed. A disaster for all the families and a real blow to the airline industry especially Boeing. It'd be easy to dismiss a crash involving 2 countries that have a poor record in regards to airline safety but this was a 2016 737 800 NG being operated by an international airline who have a licence to operate throughout the world. This sort of thing shouldn't be happening.

Early reports from Ukraine suggesting it was engine problems seem premature to say the least. Also given the plane crashed in Iran and Boeing is a US company what are the chances of a thorough and honest crash investigation being carried out? I fear this one could end up being shrouded in mystery with competing views maybe even conflicting reports being released by the various interested bodies.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Would imagine Boeing are hoping to find signs of missile damage to the wreckage. Strange times and tha...
Click to expand...

I very much doubt anyone from Boeing or the NTSB will get the chance to see any of the debris, not in the short term anyway. Even if Iran offered to let them in I think it would be unwise for US citizens to be going to Iran now.
 
Teaboy said:
I very much doubt anyone from Boeing or the NTSB will get the chance to see any of the debris, not in the short term anyway. Even if Iran offered to let them in I think it would be unwise for US citizens to be going to Iran now.
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Sure regarding US folk, but if Iran wishes to be allowed to have any flights other than domestic they have to give protected passage to someone, the BEA perhaps?
 
I don't know the protocol for these things; will not the black boxes be returned to the relative authorities when found; they will probably show what happened.
I haven't seen much news; might there be conversations (recorded) between crew and air traffic controllers?
 
hash tag said:
I don't know the protocol for these things; will not the black boxes be returned to the relative authorities when found; they will probably show what happened.
I haven't seen much news; might there be conversations (recorded) between crew and air traffic controllers?
Click to expand...

I believe it is down to the country in which the aircraft crashed to lead the investigation. Depending on the expertise and technology available to that country they will often involve investigators from the relevant authorities from where the aircraft was built. I would think it highly unlikely that the Iranians have the technology to properly read the black boxes so they will need to be sent to somewhere that does, probably France and Bahnhof Strasse suggests as relations are not to great with the US.

It will be interesting to see how the Iranians manage this.
 
I've just read that the plane had its last scheduled maintenance on Monday. Might turn out to be very relevant.
 
I can't particularly blame the Iranians for refusing to give the black boxes to Boeing, the FAA, or any America-based investigation team tbh.

Of course it could well be they don't want to hand them over because they're covering up what happened to that bird, and the flight recorders would reveal the truth. But I can also imagine as just as plausible that there was no shooting down whether intentional or accidental, but the Iranians are convniced the US might try claim otherwise for political gain, the black boxes would be their best way of proving they had no part in the crash.
 
T & P said:
I can't particularly blame the Iranians for refusing to give the black boxes to Boeing, the FAA, or any America-based investigation team tbh.

Of course it could well be they don't want to hand them over because they're covering up what happened to that bird, and the flight recorders would reveal the truth. But I can also imagine as just as plausible that there was no shooting down whether intentional or accidental, but the Iranians are convniced the US might try claim otherwise for political gain, and giving away the black boxes
Click to expand...

Is there any suggestion they are withholding them yet?
 
Not strictly linked, but I thought many recovered parts and not necessarily the black boxes, came back to the RAE and Farnborough?
 
Teaboy said:
Is there any suggestion they are withholding them yet?
Click to expand...
According to Reuters the Iranians have said they would not hand them over to Boeing. I don't know whether it's been confirmed by other sources though...

www.reuters.com

Iran will not give black box from crashed Ukrainian airliner to Boeing: Mehr

Iran will not give the black box of the crashed Ukrainian airliner to planemaker Boeing, the head of Tehran's civil aviation organization was quoted as saying on Wednesday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
T & P said:
According to Reuters the Iranians have said they would not hand them over to Boeing. I don't know whether it's been confirmed by other sources though...

www.reuters.com

Iran will not give black box from crashed Ukrainian airliner to Boeing: Mehr

Iran will not give the black box of the crashed Ukrainian airliner to planemaker Boeing, the head of Tehran's civil aviation organization was quoted as saying on Wednesday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
Click to expand...

OK, cheers. I'm not surprised by that but they are going to have to hand them over to somebody. If not France then who?
 
From BBC..." Video circulating on social media appeared to show the last few seconds of the plane's flight. It can be seen streaking across the night sky while on fire before it quickly loses height. There is an initial explosion close to the ground and then a final blast that lights up the area. "
Whatr with this and details/pictures of the wreckage, I am sure people will have a very good idea what happened.
Given the circumstances, I am sure there will be plenty of conspiracy stories surrounding it - it was the Americans wat did it because ...insert reasons...
 
hash tag said:
From BBC..." Video circulating on social media appeared to show the last few seconds of the plane's flight. It can be seen streaking across the night sky while on fire before it quickly loses height. There is an initial explosion close to the ground and then a final blast that lights up the area. "
Whatr with this and details/pictures of the wreckage, I am sure people will have a very good idea what happened.
Given the circumstances, I am sure there will be plenty of conspiracy stories surrounding it - it was the Americans wat did it because ...insert reasons...
Click to expand...

www.theguardian.com

Footage appearing to show Ukrainian passenger jet crashing broadcast on Iran state TV – video

A Ukrainian airliner with 180 people on board has crashed soon after taking off from Tehran's Imam Khomeini airport
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Certainly on fire in mid-air, certainly some sort of explosion before it hits the ground and explodes totally.

BBC "
Flight data from the Ukrainian Airlines Boeing 737-800 is openly available online. It shows that the plane climbed normally after taking-off from Tehran.
It reached nearly 8,000ft (2,400m) before the aircraft's data suddenly disappears. This is unusual and would suggest some type of catastrophic incident on board the plane. We have no evidence at this stage to tell us what caused the incident. "
 
hash tag said:
If they dont want to hand them over to anyone, well, whats to stop them hanging on to them?
Click to expand...

Nothing really. Its just basically confirms to the world that they fucked up and shot it down by accident and airlines may be a little concerned about flying in and out of Iranian airports. Russia (Soviet Union as it was) did it when they shot down that Korean 747, hid the black boxes away. I can't remember what happened with the black boxes for the Malaysian flight shot down over Ukraine.
 
The 737NG and the engine types they use have been long in service and such catastrophic uncontained engine failure from a mechanical fault would be a first as far as I can think. Unless the Ukrainians hang domestic- made engines on their 737s, though I doubt that...

Still possible it was a catastrophic mechanical failure of course, though imo it’s looking more likely it was either a collision with a drone/ foreign body ingestion to the engine, accidental hit by a rocket, accidental shooting down by Iran’s antiaircraft defences, or a deliberate act or sabotage/ bomb planted on the ground by parties unknown.
 
T & P said:
The 737NG and the engine types they use have been long in service and such catastrophic uncontained engine failure from a mechanical fault would be a first as far as I can think. Unless the Ukrainians hang domestic- made engines on their 737s, though I doubt that...
Click to expand...

There has never been an instantaneous total hull loss from an uncontained engine failure on any civil type I can think of. The QF32 A380 engine failure was massive, punctured fuel and hydraulics but everyone survived. For a fuel explosion the tank has to be almost empty to allow vapours to form and in the temperature range 30-50 deg C (any colder - not enough vapour, any hotter - not enough air). The TWA800 centre tank explosion had this extremely unlikely set of circumstances.
 
This is another yet another occasion where the need for the data from the black boxes to be backed up away from the boxes itself is obvious. With the technology we have now and what is at stake it is absolutely time for this data to be backed up elsewhere. I understand pilots concerns but this is affecting all our safety now. It can't be left to the whim of corrupt regimes who may or may not have something to hide.

The NTSB in conjunction with Boeing and Ukraine Airlines should all be trawling through this data as we speak.
 
A few years back I texted my Mum to let her know that I was flying Air Canada, just like we did in the 1970s.

"In those days, you were allowed smoke on the plane", she texted right back at me (bitterly).
 
Teaboy said:
This is another yet another occasion where the need for the data from the black boxes to be backed up away from the boxes itself is obvious. With the technology we have now and what is at stake it is absolutely time for this data to be backed up elsewhere. I understand pilots concerns but this is affecting all our safety now. It can't be left to the whim of corrupt regimes who may or may not have something to hide.

The NTSB in conjunction with Boeing and Ukraine Airlines should all be trawling through this data as we speak.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that the bandwidth required for real time back ups of black box data make it essentially impossible - but I'm not a techie, so does anyone else know about this one?
 
Idris2002 said:
My understanding is that the bandwidth required for real time back ups of black box data make it essentially impossible - but I'm not a techie, so does anyone else know about this one?
Click to expand...

I don't think that's the case but like you I'm no techie either. A lot of airliners have reasonable wifi now so I don't see why something as important as this couldn't be developed. I appreciate there may be some black spots.

My understanding is that the pilots have been opposed for some time presumably through fear that employers will use it as a chance to spy on what they are up to and use it against them. Which to be fair is a legitimate concern but one that can be managed.
 
Not on purpose. The previously quoted report mentions an accident.
Also, there will be much propoganda and blame made out of it.
 
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