Rail now easily beating air on London<>Edinburgh journeys

[Pickman's model]

'More people than ever travelling incorrectly between London and Edinburgh'.

Clearly, unseasoned travellers are going to make mistakes.

Sure teuchter is both seasoned and well refreshed when he travels

 

[Sue]

I guess it depends on where you live but if you live in London surely it's easier to get to Kings X and within 10mins you're sitting in your seat and moving.
Both Glasgow & Edinburgh stations are right in the middle of the city. You can spend hours at airports. Admittedly both rail & air have delays but at least you can actually walk about a bit on a train.

Definitely. And way less faffing about.

 

[Sue]

Sure teuchter is both seasoned and well refreshed when he travels

Last Scotland-bound train out of London on a Friday night is infamous for its well-refreshed clientele. I've done it sober. Never again.

 

[Pickman's model]

Last Scotland-bound train out of London on a Friday night is infamous for its well-refreshed clientele. I've done it sober. Never again.

Yeh the only way to do it is drunk

 

[Riklet]

Between Edinburgh and London? Nope. The airports are miles away from the city centres and you’d need trains either end and ages to book in and all that shit.

Well as you didnt answer my question, I looked it up. An off peak return is £160.90. If you want to leave before 10am it's over 370 quid! I had a little looksie on National Rail and no cheap singles sprung out at me. So yes if your company is paying, you're rich or you live right next to King's Cross then you might just book it but anyone pressed for time or at all thrifty is gonna check out flights. Especially if you live near or relatively near one of the FIVE London airports which have flights to Edinburgh.

Now dont get me wrong. I am not supporting flying within the UK. The train should be a realistic option (and maybe even faster!) but due to a multitude of problems, it often isn't -there must be plenty of people taking the numerous daily flights between London and Edinburgh. Cheapest return I could find was £19.98 and I didnt even try hard. You could still get a taxi both ends and pay less than the train! And to get to the airport, who books a train for a short journey like that? you can use the machine at the station or just use contactless or your oyster card for Gatwick or Heathrow or hop on a bus for Stanstead and Luton.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeh the only way to do it is drunk

"Only if you're pissed" is excellent advice to give to anyone considering travelling by train in the UK, where other options are available.

 

[dessiato]

My sister recently travelled to visit us. Train from Grimsby to Doncaster delayed one hour. Train Doncaster to Newcastle was late. Newcastle to Dunbar was thirty minutes late. Total journey time of about 7 hours excluding travel to/from the stations. Not too bad considering the delays on the way.

By car, 5½ hours door to door. Rail, although very good in some instances, still has a way to go to beat the car.

 

[teuchter]

Well as you didnt answer my question, I looked it up. An off peak return is £160.90. If you want to leave before 10am it's over 370 quid! I had a little looksie on National Rail and no cheap singles sprung out at me. So yes if your company is paying, you're rich or you live right next to King's Cross then you might just book it but anyone pressed for time or at all thrifty is gonna check out flights. Especially if you live near or relatively near one of the FIVE London airports which have flights to Edinburgh.

Now dont get me wrong. I am not supporting flying within the UK. The train should be a realistic option (and maybe even faster!) but due to a multitude of problems, it often isn't -there must be plenty of people taking the numerous daily flights between London and Edinburgh. Cheapest return I could find was £19.98 and I didnt even try hard. You could still get a taxi both ends and pay less than the train! And to get to the airport, who books a train for a short journey like that? you can use the machine at the station or just use contactless or your oyster card for Gatwick or Heathrow or hop on a bus for Stanstead and Luton.

What times were the flights for that £19.98 return?

 

[friedaweed]

It's another one of those things where I am proved right eventually.

I bet you had a cheeky wank after posting that.

A stopped clock is right twice a day

 

[Maggot]

Well as you didnt answer my question, I looked it up. An off peak return is £160.90. If you want to leave before 10am it's over 370 quid! I had a little looksie on National Rail and no cheap singles sprung out at me. So yes if your company is paying, you're rich or you live right next to King's Cross then you might just book it but anyone pressed for time or at all thrifty is gonna check out flights. Especially if you live near or relatively near one of the FIVE London airports which have flights to Edinburgh.

Did you look at the Lumo mentioned in the OP? I found singles from £35.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well as you didnt answer my question, I looked it up

Wasn’t aware you’d asked me a question, sorry.

 

[danny la rouge]

Ah, you hadn’t.

 

[Pickman's model]

"Only if you're pissed" is excellent advice to give to anyone considering travelling by train in the UK, where other options are available if teuchter might be on the train

C4u

 

[Spymaster]

Ah, you hadn’t.

I think you'll find he did, old chap.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think you'll find he did, old chap.

Really? When?

 

[Spymaster]

Really? When?

Well you quoted a post of his, part of which asked a question, but you didn't address the question bit.

 

[Riklet]

Did you look at the Lumo mentioned in the OP? I found singles from £35.

I had a look as as teuchter pointed out I hadnt looked at the tweets in the OP properly. And I do like the idea and honestly I would use them myself. Trains can be great. But yeah couldnt find anything cheaper than £100 return really on Loopy Lines. A nice discount on national rail still though tbf...

Yes it's true the cheapo flights are dead early or late. You might pay £80-120 if you want flights at reasonable hours. But isnt it ridiculous that this still makes it cheaper than the train. Seriously.

 

[danny la rouge]

Well you quoted a post of his, part of which asked a question, but you didn't address the question bit.

Oh, I thought that question was posed at someone earlier in the thread who travelled between Edinburgh and London, maybe Teuchter. We’ve already establish that I don’t. I’d be Googling the same as anyone else.

 

[8ball]

"Only if you're pissed" is excellent advice to give to anyone considering travelling by train in the UK, where other options are available.

Well, if you’re planning to get pissed on either leg.

I like trains. When they work.

 

[T & P]

Not sure if the point of the OP was to support his general ‘trains good, planes bad’ banter, or if he was talking about the specific conditions here in the UK. In either case, the issue of plane vs train usage in this country has always come down to cost. So it is ironic that the the OP is claiming bragging rights now, when he’s been a long-standing proposer of the utterly laughable proposition that train ticket prices in this country are actually reasonable.

Of course genuinely affordable fares are there to be had. But at the end of the day, for every genuinely cheap train fare posted here as an example of how everyone here can travel cheaply (which only those with a Fat Controller-level of knowledge of the UK railway network can usually find, anyway), there are countless real-world situations where it is fucking expensive. Because most people don’t always have the luxury of being able to book tickets 23.5 days before the date of travel, departing at lunchtime.
Bottom line: in most countries in the Continent, an unexpected, last minute trip by train might not be as cheap as it could be, but it’s not a fucking pisstake either, and certainly not far more expensive than flying. Which is why far more people choose to travel by train over the Channel for journeys up to 600 km than here.

So yes, it is great news more people are now travelling by train than plane in the London to Scotland routes. But it should have been a far higher percentage, and reached a long time ago. Perhaps not so much ‘trains good, planes bad and finally the British public is coming round to that way of thinking’ as ‘about fucking time, and it should be far more so but it won’t because most rail fares that are not ludicrously constricted and heavily restricted remain far too expensive’.

 

[8ball]

Not sure if the point of the OP was to support his general ‘trains good, planes bad’ banter, or if he was talking about the specific conditions here in the UK. In either case, the issue of plane vs train usage in this country has always come down to cost. So it is ironic that the the OP is claiming bragging rights now, when he’s been a long-standing proposer of the utterly laughable proposition that train ticket prices in this country are actually reasonable.

Of course genuinely affordable fares are there to be had. But at the end of the day, for every genuinely cheap train fare posted here as an example of how everyone here can travel cheaply (which only those with a Fat Controller-level of knowledge of the UK railway network can usually find, anyway), there are countless real-world situations where it is fucking expensive. Because most people don’t always have the luxury of being able to book tickets 23.5 days before the date of travel, departing at lunchtime.
Bottom line: in most countries in the Continent, an unexpected, last minute trip by train might not be as cheap as it could be, but it’s not a fucking pisstake either, and certainly not far more expensive than flying. Which is why far more people choose to travel by train over the Channel for journeys up to 600 km than here.

So yes, it is great news more people are now travelling by train than plane in the London to Scotland routes. But it should have been a far higher percentage, and reached a long time ago. Perhaps not so much ‘trains good, planes bad and finally the British public is coming round to that way of thinking’ as ‘about fucking time, and it should be far more so but it won’t because most rail fares that are not ludicrously constricted and heavily restricted remain far too expensive’.

Great post.

I’m sure there’s a point to be made about relative levels of subsidies too, but I’m not knowledgable enough to make it.

Seems clear that not everybody who would like to is able to take advantage of the best of the fares, though.

Maybe teuchter should set up a site where he gets to keep a third of the savings made by these cheap tickets.

I used to have a mate who did something like this, just not so eco-friendly cos this was planes.

 

[teuchter]

Great post.

I’m sure there’s a point to be made about relative levels of subsidies too, but I’m not knowledgable enough to make it.

Seems clear that not everybody who would like to is able to take advantage of the best of the fares, though.

Maybe teuchter should set up a site where he gets to keep a third of the savings made by these cheap tickets.

I used to have a mate who did something like this, just not so eco-friendly cos this was planes.

It's not really a great post - it's just repeating inaccurate stuff he's typed out 100 times before.

I've long argued that the fares system should be simpler, and that rail travel should be subsidised more (to bring down fares) in exchange for reducing subsidy to car and air travel (which need to get more expensive).

I also often help people find cheaper rail fares when they come up with very expensive ones due to unfamiliarity with the system.

I also point out (to people who've never actually travelled much by rail there) that things aren't always as rosey as they think on the European continent. They usually get the impression that everything's amazingly better there from reading one of those alarmist tabloid articles. The reality is more complicated.

T & P puts 2 and 2 together, gets 13,000 and announces that I am a defender of the UK's terrible rail fare system.

 

[teuchter]

I had a look as as teuchter pointed out I hadnt looked at the tweets in the OP properly. And I do like the idea and honestly I would use them myself. Trains can be great. But yeah couldnt find anything cheaper than £100 return really on Loopy Lines. A nice discount on national rail still though tbf...

Yes it's true the cheapo flights are dead early or late. You might pay £80-120 if you want flights at reasonable hours. But isnt it ridiculous that this still makes it cheaper than the train. Seriously.

If you're not going to reveal when the £20 return was, how about the £80 return you now mention?

 

[8ball]

'More people than ever travelling incorrectly between London and Edinburgh'.

Clearly, unseasoned travellers are going to make mistakes.

What is your preferred mode, out of interest. Would have loved to fly up there in my mate’s plane, but would have been a one time thing (and less emissions than a seat on a commercial jet tbf).

 

[8ball]

It's not really a great post - it's just repeating inaccurate stuff he's typed out 100 times before.

I've long argued that the fares system should be simpler, and that rail travel should be subsidised more (to bring down fares) in exchange for reducing subsidy to car and air travel (which need to get more expensive).

I also often help people find cheaper rail fares when they come up with very expensive ones due to unfamiliarity with the system.

I also point out (to people who've never actually travelled much by rail there) that things aren't always as rosey as they think on the European continent. They usually get the impression that everything's amazingly better there from reading one of those alarmist tabloid articles. The reality is more complicated.

T & P puts 2 and 2 together, gets 13,000 and announces that I am a defender of the UK's terrible rail fare system.

I’m sure it’s more complicated, but it has been pretty good when I’ve been over there. Denmark wasn’t so incredibly cheap, but compared to the price of a pint it still was.

Got a train in the States too and it was pretty good value, though a bit of a different vibe (eg. voice over tannoy was like being barked at by a police officer, had a bit of an authoritarian thing going on).

Fair to say that not everyone can get even that close to the deals you know how to find, though.

 

[T & P]

It's not really a great post - it's just repeating inaccurate stuff he's typed out 100 times before.

I've long argued that the fares system should be simpler, and that rail travel should be subsidised more (to bring down fares) in exchange for reducing subsidy to car and air travel (which need to get more expensive).

I also often help people find cheaper rail fares when they come up with very expensive ones due to unfamiliarity with the system.

I also point out (to people who've never actually travelled much by rail there) that things aren't always as rosey as they think on the European continent. They usually get the impression that everything's amazingly better there from reading one of those alarmist tabloid articles. The reality is more complicated.

T & P puts 2 and 2 together, gets 13,000 and announces that I am a defender of the UK's terrible rail fare system.

You keep repeating your narrative to a comparable extent, but surely you are aware you are about the only one in this forum, let alone IRL, who claims train travel is generally affordable on the whole. Because at the end of the day, cheap showcase specific journeys are no use to most people who cannot be flexible with their travel dates.

I certainly have never met, or even heard of, a single member of the public who ever said train fares in this country are anywhere near reasonable on the whole. Never mind if they needed to travel at short notice or, god forbid- a walk-in fare. That is the massive difference between here and most other countries.

You say you often help people here find cheaper fares if asked. Isn’t that actually a perfect example of the problem in this country, rather than an argument for cheap fares in the UK? Nobody should have to ask for help from train boffins on Internet forums to build up a train journey that is not extortionate, ffs.

Cheap, easy to book journeys in this country are the exception, not the rule. That is a fact not an opinion. And until that changes, plenty of people will still consider flying over taking the train for distances as short as London to Manchester or Liverpool, never mind to Scotland.

 

[teuchter]

You keep repeating your narrative to a comparable extent, but surely you are aware you are about the only one in this forum, let alone IRL, who claims train travel is generally affordable on the whole. Because at the end of the day, cheap showcase specific journeys are no use to most people who cannot be flexible with their travel dates.

I certainly have never met, or even heard of, a single member of the public who ever said train fares in this country are anywhere near reasonable on the whole. Never mind if they needed to travel at short notice or, god forbid- a walk-in fare. That is the massive difference between here and most other countries.

You say you often help people here find cheaper fares if asked. Isn’t that actually a perfect example of the problem in this country, rather than an argument for cheap fares in the UK? Nobody should have to ask for help from train boffins on Internet forums to build up a train journey that is not extortionate, ffs.

Cheap, easy to book journeys in this country are the exception, not the rule. That is a fact not an opinion. And until that changes, plenty of people will still consider flying over taking the train for distances as short as London to Manchester or Liverpool, never mind to Scotland.

You don't appear to have read anything I've written, as usual, as you seem to be arguing against positions I don't hold, as usual.

 

[teuchter]

Fair to say that not everyone can get even that close to the deals you know how to find, though.

Not entirely true - the ticket split websites can mostly do as well as, or better than, folks like I can, now.

But, as I repeatedly say, I don't defend the complexity of what we have - it's a complete mess and it shouldn't be like this.

 

[Spymaster]

What is your preferred mode, out of interest.

Depends why I'm going up. Last time I went was last summer and I drove but that was because I wanted to drive and use the car to tour around whilst we were there. I overnighted in York on the way there and Chester with friedaweed on the way back, so the driving was very much a highlight of the trip.

Before that most of my trips to Edinburgh were business, and I used to get a carnet from BMI which was 10 prepurchased returns which averaged about £50 each. Even at the time that was substantially less than half the cost of the train fare. The trains and stations were unpleasant places to be and the services frequently delayed. I could get an early flight out of Heathrow, do a days work in Scotland and be back home in London in time for dinner. All this 'airport hassle' that train people talk about is completey overblown, btw. The only queues are for security and you can pay £7 to bypass those anyway. There's no passport control for internal flights so you get off the plane and simply walk out of the airport. If you only have hand luggage it's the same as walking off the train.

 

[Pickman's model]

Depends why I'm going up. Last time I went was last summer and I drove but that was because I wanted to drive and use the car to tour around whilst we were there. I overnighted in York on the way there and Chester with friedaweed on the way back, so the driving was very much a highlight of the trip.

Before that most of my trips to Edinburgh were business, and I used to get a carnet from BMI which was 10 prepurchased returns which averaged about £50 each. Even at the time that was substantially less than half the cost of the train fare. The trains and stations were unpleasant places to be and the services frequently delayed. I could get an early flight out of Heathrow, do a days work in Scotland and be back home in London in time for dinner. All this 'airport hassle' that train people talk about is completey overblown, btw. The only queues are for security and you can pay £7 to bypass those anyway. There's no passport control for internal flights so you get off the plane and simply walk out of the airport. If you only have hand luggage it's the same as walking off the train.

overnighted? overnit is the correct term