Afghanistan: Mission Accomplished

[Jeff Robinson]

BBC in 2014


BBC Today

Afghanistan: 'We have won the war, America has lost', say Taliban

A BBC team meets the Taliban, a group that clearly sees itself as Afghanistan's government-in-waiting.

www.bbc.co.uk

" The Taliban don't see themselves as a mere rebel group, but as a government-in-waiting. They refer to themselves as the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan," the name they used when in power from 1996 until being overthrown in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. Now, they have a sophisticated "shadow" structure, with officials in charge of overseeing everyday services in the areas they control. Haji Hekmat, the Taliban mayor, takes us on a tour. "
...

Airpower, particularly that provided by the Americans, has been crucial over the years in holding back the Taliban's advance. The US already drastically cut back its military operations after signing an agreement with the Taliban last year, and many fear that following their withdrawal the Taliban will be placed to launch a military takeover of the country.
Haji Hekmat derides the Afghan government, or "Kabul administration" as the Taliban refer to it, as corrupt and un-Islamic. It's hard to see how men like him will reconcile with others in the country, unless it's on their own terms.
"This is jihad," he says, "it is worship. We don't do it for power but for Allah and His law. To bring Sharia to this country. Whoever stands against us we will fight against them."

Not bad, 20 years of war, hundreds of thousands dead, trillions of dollars spent and Afghan's get the same government they started with, this time with a renewed sense of their invisibility and a role model of protracted
guerrilla warfare to inspire jihadists the world over. Excellent job imperialism!

 

[Pickman's model]

Not bad, 20 years of war, hundreds of thousands dead, trillions of dollars spent and Afghan's get the same government they started with, this time with a renewed sense of their invisibility and a role model of protracted
guerrilla warfare to inspire jihadists the world over. Excellent job imperialism!

No mullah omar mind so not quite the same government

 

[ska invita]

Not bad, 20 years of war, hundreds of thousands dead, trillions of dollars spent and Afghan's get the same government they started with, this time with a renewed sense of their invisibility and a role model of protracted
guerrilla warfare to inspire jihadists the world over. Excellent job imperialism!

not to disagree but as to whether Taliban can become the government , that isn't a given. I don't know enough about the state of forces on the ground, nor what future proxy power the US intends to wield. What is certain is Taliban continue to be de facto force on the ground in many areas and I doubt they lack the ambition to seize total control

 

[Jeff Robinson]

No mullah omar mind so not quite the same government

Hopefully a more moderate leader will take over, Mullah Light for example.

 

[Yossarian]

Donald Trump must be seething - he campaigned on ending "forever wars" and bringing the troops home, held peace talks with the Taliban, and negotiated a withdrawal agreement, now Joe Biden is going to get all the credit.

 

[Pickman's model]

not to disagree but as to whether Taliban can become the government , that isn't a given. I don't know enough about the state of forces on the ground, nor what future proxy power the US intends to wield. What is certain is Taliban continue to be de facto force on the ground in many areas and I doubt they lack the ambition to seize total control

All I know is no one wants to be the next najibullah

 

[Humberto]

Several of the world's most expensive and sophisticated military powers sent packing by farmers with AK47s and IEDs. Although civilians will still have to live with drone warfare I expect.

A complete mess. Blair thought if the Taliban were routed that liberal democracy would fill the void. Successive governments carried on the futile folly at the expense of others' lives and limbs rather than have the guts and the integrity to listen to the ones who tried to make them see reason. Dreadful.

 

[ska invita]

It'd be interesting to know the total cost. And think how that money couldve been spent differently.

Afghanistan: What has the conflict cost the US and its allies?

How much has been spent on foreign military intervention in Afghanistan over the past two decades?

www.bbc.co.uk

Between 2010 to 2012, when the US for a time had more than 100,000 soldiers in the country, the cost of the war grew to almost $100bn a year, according to US government figures.
By 2018 annual expenditure was around $45bn

-------
just a super lazy figure, call it $50billion a year (it was more than that) - round it to 10 years, call it $500 Billion = $500,000,000,000
Afghan population is 38 million = $13,157 per person. Thats an under estimate.
average Afghan annual wage is $1000 a year.
Of course the war budget isnt being spent on Afghanis, it mainly goes into US-based military complex, and thats partly the point of a war, but still.

 

[Doodler]

Several of the world's most expensive and sophisticated military powers sent packing by farmers with AK47s and IEDs. Although civilians will still have to live with drone warfare I expect.

A complete mess. Blair thought if the Taliban were routed that liberal democracy would fill the void. Successive governments carried on the futile folly at the expense of others' lives and limbs rather than have the guts and the integrity to listen to the ones who tried to make them see reason. Dreadful.

Not just Blair, plenty more believed such nonsense on both sides of the Atlantic and worse, such as Iraq gearing up to make their own fission bombs. It takes a lot of education to be that fucking stupid.

 

[ska invita]

Several of the world's most expensive and sophisticated military powers sent packing by farmers with AK47s and IEDs. Although civilians will still have to live with drone warfare I expect. A complete mess. Blair thought if the Taliban were routed that liberal democracy would fill the void. Successive governments carried on the futile folly at the expense of others' lives and limbs rather than have the guts and the integrity to listen to the ones who tried to make them see reason. Dreadful.

Begs the question what was the real military goal? Chomsky makes the case, correctly IMO, that the US achieved its military goals in Vietnam, namely crushing Communism in the country. No idea if the US planners are happy with the outcome - they may well be.

 

[Humberto]

Begs the question what was the real military goal? Chomsky makes the case, correctly IMO, that the US achieved its military goals in Vietnam, namely crushing Communism in the country. No idea if the US planners are happy with the outcome - they may well be.

Perhaps a combination of follies e.g. Cultural ignorance/exceptionalism, an 'easy target' to unleash overwhelming military superiority upon, imperialist/capitalist motives. Amongst other shitness.

 

[Doodler]

Begs the question what was the real military goal? Chomsky makes the case, correctly IMO, that the US achieved its military goals in Vietnam, namely crushing Communism in the country. No idea if the US planners are happy with the outcome - they may well be.

Simplest answer is that the goals were as stated: defeat the Taliban, turn Afghanistan into a Western-friendly client state aka a democracy, and 'have our grandchildren sing great songs about us' (Dick Cheney).

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

It'd be interesting to know the total cost. And think how that money couldve been spent differently.

Ultimately, I think the cost to the US is its superpower status.

 

[David Clapson]

I was in Kabul in 2006 and the wise heads in the NGO contingent were already saying that a negotiated settlement with the Taliban was the only possible outcome. Many people in government and the military knew for years that the notion of 'winning' was a pretence. Pity it took so long for them to say so. I suppose nobody wanted to tell the American public that they couldn't have payback for 9/11 and something to show for all that the money. Do you remember Bush's speech in the ruins of the WTC? "The people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon." The look on his face promised so much violence. I remember feeling scared by what was coming, but I had no idea it would take 20 years! Such a terrible waste of a beautiful country. Just blow it to dust and leave the people at the mercy of thugs and monsters.

 

[A380]

Alexander the Great, us (three times), the Soviet Union and now the USA (and and encore for us). Given China is now best buddies with Pakistan and wants to piss of India whenever possible how long before the PLA have a go?

 

[yield]

Begs the question what was the real military goal? Chomsky makes the case, correctly IMO, that the US achieved its military goals in Vietnam, namely crushing Communism in the country. No idea if the US planners are happy with the outcome - they may well be.

Machiavelli - Whenever those states which have been acquired as stated have been accustomed to live under their own laws and in freedom, there are three courses for those who wish to hold them:

the first is to ruin them, the next is to reside there in person, the third is to permit them to live under their own laws, drawing a tribute, and establishing within it an oligarchy which will keep it friendly to you.

Ultimately, I think the cost to the US is its superpower status.

No-one comes close to USA's power. American spending on the military is larger than the GDP of some big countries.

Alexander the Great, us (three times), the Soviet Union and now the USA (and and encore for us). Given China is now best buddies with Pakistan and wants to piss of India whenever possible how long before the PLA have a go?

I wonder how much China needs Afghanistan for the Belt and Road Initiative?

 

[A380]

Machiavelli - Whenever those states which have been acquired as stated have been accustomed to live under their own laws and in freedom, there are three courses for those who wish to hold them:

the first is to ruin them, the next is to reside there in person, the third is to permit them to live under their own laws, drawing a tribute, and establishing within it an oligarchy which will keep it friendly to you.


No-one comes close to USA's power. American spending on the military is larger than the GDP of some big countries.

I wonder how much China needs Afghanistan for the Belt and Road Initiative?

I'm not sure any of the empires who got a kicking really 'needed' Afghan...

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

No-one comes close to USA's power. American spending on the military is larger than the GDP of some big countries.

Its not sustainable. We're reaching a point when military spending will have to decrease because the economy won't continue to support spending at that rate. Also, the "playing field" in the modern world isn't only military, its also economic. With the drain of spending that the military is taking away from infrastructure--both tangible and human--it will eventually start to erode economic growth. Factor in all of the other challenges facing us, such as climate change, and its only a matter of time. Give it a decade.

 

[A380]

Its not sustainable. We're reaching a point when military spending will have to decrease because the economy won't continue to support spending at that rate. Also, the "playing field" in the modern world isn't only military, its also economic. With the drain of spending that the military is taking away from infrastructure--both tangible and human--it will eventually start to erode economic growth. Factor in all of the other challenges facing us, such as climate change, and its only a matter of time. Give it a decade.

"Never go to war with a country that makes more cars than you'. China made 20M cars in 2019 and the US2M.

 

[krtek a houby]

Ultimately, I think the cost to the US is its superpower status.

Good.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Good.

I doubt if you'll like what replaces it. Its the nature of superpowers (or their leaders) to get drunk on power.

 

[A380]

I doubt if you'll like what replaces it. Its the nature of superpowers (or their leaders) to get drunk on power.

I love visiting both the US and China. I’d rather we didn’t have superpowers but I’d rather live in a world where America were the dominant world power (massively flawed though it is) rather than China as it is now. Not that it matters what I want ...

 

[Humberto]

There were a lot of supposed 'humanitarianism' justifications as well. In subsequent wars too. I've nothing much to say on that btw, but it was there nevertheless. They are too important to see a court, or even to acknowledge the gravity of their mistakes?

 

[krtek a houby]

I doubt if you'll like what replaces it. Its the nature of superpowers (or their leaders) to get drunk on power.

Not in favour of any superpowers, to be honest.

They tend to kill, invade and topple a bit too much, for my liking.

 

[David Clapson]

Not bad, 20 years of war, hundreds of thousands dead, trillions of dollars spent and Afghan's get the same government they started with, this time with a renewed sense of their invisibility and a role model of protracted
guerrilla warfare to inspire jihadists the world over. Excellent job imperialism!

It's really 43 years of war. The fighting has been constant since the 1978 coup, which was supposed to get rid of their feudal society. Looks like they'll go back to it. When the US leaves there'll be a showdown between warlords and Taliban and the Kabul government. Maybe a long civil war or a quick Taliban victory. Fuck knows. Plus ISIL have been moving into Afghanistan. They probably think they can defeat the Taliban and have Afghanistan as the centre of their caliphate. Which will mean fighting with Pakistan. It's never going to stop. And to think that Kabul used to be flooded with eager beaver western NGOs doing noble things, e.g. my ex gf doing women's rights projects for the International Rescue Committee. What a farce.

 

[petee]

I suppose nobody wanted to tell the American public that they couldn't have payback for 9/11 and something to show for all that the money.

when i first waded onto the Internet 18 or so years ago i tried to say this to mah fellow Americans and i got hit with a ton of bricks.

 

[David Clapson]

The one good thing about this and the Iraq disaster is that it slightly reduces the credibility of Americans who argue for invasions of Iran, North Korea etc. But only slightly. Too many Americans have a naive view that a Bad country needs invading, because Justice and Democracy and God. The logical conclusion is that all Bad countries must have nukes to keep the Americans out.

 

[TopCat]

What a shit show.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Not in favour of any superpowers, to be honest.

They tend to kill, invade and topple a bit too much, for my liking.

I'm with you, but like A380 said, its doesn't seem to be up to us.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm with you, but like A380 said, its doesn't seem to be up to us.

It never is.