Afghanistan: Mission Accomplished
- Thread starter toblerone3
- Start date
I read the DM. I know loads who read it just for the vacuous celeb shit. It's entertaining in its own way. Doesn't mean all those people who read something that is freely available online falls into a stereotype.
Yossarian
⏭️
Minister warns UDA after man tarred and feathered in Belfast
Government money in support of a loyalist conflict transformation initiative will be withdrawn if UDA "thuggery and violence" …
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
The mendacious, insidious language of capitalism.
And I also read you. #NotAllBillRiverReaders
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
How else would you characterise their politics, influences and their practical application upon ordinary people?
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Hard to work out the reasons for the left’s utter irrelevance isn’t it?
Yossarian
⏭️
I don't think that many of the Daily Mail readers who say things like "car thieves should be tarred and feathered" would be pleased if it actually started happening.
They're probably more in agreement with the Taliban on the need for capital punishment, but not on which crimes it should be applied to.
They're probably more in agreement with the Taliban on the need for capital punishment, but not on which crimes it should be applied to.
No Shiite Sherlock.
Actually no idea why I thought that so thanks for the update. The Muhajadeen links to Saudi maybe? Fair points.
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Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
Between Watergate and the fall of Saigon, it probably wasn't a surprise that we elected Jimmy Carter, a relative outsider to national politics. Its probably a bit ironic that it was another international debacle that caused him to lose reelection.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What I think smmudge is getting at is that Western intervention helped cause this return to "medieval punishments" .
The Mujadiheen whose views aren't that much different were armed and encouraged by the US. Seen as freedom fighters against communism.
It is not what you term the left that should be questioning its relevance.
Its Centre politicians who thought interfering in this country would improve matters for ordinary Afghans.
What has just happened shows its not the so called Left that is not relevant but the centre / centre right political system who played a major role in bringing Afghanistan to the sorry state its in now.
So don't blame the left.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yeah, I think what I’m questioning is a response that skips over the beatings, stonings, subjugations, killings and terror of the Taliban and questions instead how they are being characteristised. It could be dismissed as a bizarre, clunky response but it’s not. The rehabilitation of the Taliban by the PMC is well underway today. For a variety of reasons. All of them shit
I posted a long Twitter thread above about the historical development of the Taliban and Muhajadeen. It’s worth reading before wading in and conflating the two by the way.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
At least they're not cyclists
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I also put a post on a doc about women in Afghanistan. Perhaps you should watch it before wading into me.
For Afghan women the US funded Mujadiheen was a threat to any rights they had obtained prior to the war.
As one put it in doc the groups funded were the most reactionary.
People like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I’m not wading into anyone. I’m questioning the politics of an approach that responds to a post about the Taliban killing people by questioning if calling them medieval is fair/western imperialist.
I’m also questioning the conflation of them and the Mujahideen.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You said I was wading in. Give it a break.
And going on about the so called left.
Well they're fighting with modern weaponry. They have advanced enough strategies to see off forces much more powerful than themselves (even by waiting them out). Their politics are a bit shit and old fashioned but are they much different from any other Theocracies?
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Calling them medieval is (a) a way of comparing them to Europe and (b) a way of saying they are 'backward'. Whatever emotional truth you might find in saying those things, it is not remotely helpful for understanding a very current, very not-European movement. I know it's painful to try to understand people you don't like, but refusing to try to understand anything about Afghanistan, Afghan people, and history and current affairs in Afghanistan is how the Western powers got where they are today. Going around calling people medieval despite their recent and particular history is just a way of switching off your brain and not thinking about them any more apart from how dislikeable they are. I'm tired of the immense ignorance and stupidity in the establishment on Afghanistan so forgive me for getting impatient with tendencies in that direction here. Okay, you don't like them, fine. What's the next thought? Maybe why has a bunch of loosely organised, poorly trained and lightly armed villagers twice been able to take over the country? The clues to that are all around us, not in medieval times.
Humberto
Well-Known Member
From what I can tell there is a core that is brought up in Madrassas from childhood into the Taliban ethos and strictures. The Nato governments saw an 'easy target' and an opportunity to inflate their capital. They were never going to 'win' because they weren't serious about it on terms we can relate to.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Is it not quite simple? That foreign powers invading Afghanistan are unpopular with enough people that any legitimacy their puppet/client government may have vanishes when the foreign power decides to go home. Their power base crumbles. Never mind how advanced or mediaeval they may be. This applies to countries other than Afghanistan, of course. The Taliban just happened to still be around when the Americans left, not having ever been truly defeated. Whether they can hold the capital and the rest of the country remains to be seen. We can hope not, but who would replace them, realistically, in the short term?
Humberto
Well-Known Member
I'll have a stab from memory because I'm not pulling all the facts up, therefore happy to be corrected or whatever. The first 5 years or so after the Nato invasion and the routing of the Taliban, they were gone. People expected development, jobs, peace and freedoms. But that soon all went out the window. Corruption, injustice, inequality. Then Nato started warring on the opium growers, bombing the wedding parties. But still no deliverance of their hopes. I forget the obscene unemployment and poverty numbers, but Afghanistan was ranked among the bottom couple poorest countries even then, whilst the Nato soldiers were fighting the 'Taliban', i.e. in many cases people who didn't have a choice. It became a vicious circle and nightmare that politicians wouldn't address.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Fixed for you.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
There are no women's bikes. Couldn't happen. Hence his bike.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
I enjoy your posts, and I've learned a lot from them over the years; but honestly I think you should probably just pull your pants up here. Yes, the PMC in general and most governments are going to rationalise co-operating with the Taliban govt of Afghanistan. For reasons, as you say, none of them good.
I don't think the answer is othering and monstering, as Brainaddict pointed out, it misses the point that they won. Against NATO, and the US and UK in particular. In the main because of corruption that NATO supported, for reasons (none of them good).
So, to see it from a less Eurocentric point .. what may have happened, is that lots of Afghans preferred a harsh government they understand but see as honest, if brutal (and has there ever been a time in Afghanistan that life was not brutal for most people?) .. over a foreign-backed, corrupt government that allowed NATO (and the US and UK in particular) to bomb their shit.
I don't think medieval really says anything useful about this situation, except to stoke up the othering and the monstering. Which is fine, if you like that sort of thing and after all this is the internets. Islamo-fascist? I think that will do just fine, simplistic as it no doubt is. Medieval is just .. to me it's like calling them kids.
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