ABE - Where's the HATE?

[discokermit]

Ooh, them continentals, they learn to pass the ball age 4, whereas English players are just taught to be big and lump the ball forward. Oooh, the Ajax academy wankwankwank.

you forgot brazilians playing barefoot on the beach.

 

[discokermit]

beach football

s'okay, here it is.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Look I'll quote you that part of the conversation, if you're not arsed to see what it was actually about:

ME:


YOU:


Me:


You:


You tell me what this part of the conversation was about, if not the current quality of the england team? Note your use of the present tense I've highlighted in bold.

Fuck me you are petty - you can selectively quote all you like, but the debate on this thread and the one that preceded it has been about the qualities and achievements of different national teams.

yeah, it's a really outdated cliche. The Dutch leagues produce considerably fewer great younger players than the Premier League does.

Bullshit it is outdated. The Dutch league produces a huge amount of talent - again, perhaps you should look at the squad list of your local team - and what is more, the Dutch do this from a population of fifteen million not sixty million.

I'm saying it's a relatively insignificant factor in the development of most professional footballers.

Technique is irrelevant. Spoken like a true Englishman.

Christ, it's not hard. Not being the best in the world, doesn't make you underachievers, it just makes you mediocre

But we're back to square one, aren't we? Vast population, favourable economic conditions, strongest league system in the world, one of the two contenders for strongest top flights, and football is the dominant sport - yet not only are you not the best in the world, you don't even come close. That is mediocre. You are still yet to put across anything that would prove or even suggest otherwise.

It's like you're having a conversation with yourself. All of the 23 england players in South Africa were developed by English club academies. You keep saying at the elite level England has caught up, well that's where all these players are from - the elite level. What does the grassroots have to do with them?

What do you not understand? If the overall structure produced more quality players then England would have a greater pool of players to choose from, instead of limiting themselves to a relatively small pool produced by a small number of elite academies. This is why Brasil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, Germany and the Netherlands succeed - because their top players come from a much wider pool of players. It isn't a difficult concept to understand, unless of course you are being deliberately obtuse.

CLICHE 1:


CLICHE 2:


I'm not arsed going back looking for more.

Yet neither are cliches. Here is the acid test for you - if those are cliches, then google them, and see how many results you get. Idiot.

It's about 20 years old: the rest of the world learns technical skills, and the english learn hoofball. The Premier League is the most cosmopolitan league in the world, the clubs and academies are run by people all over the world, designed to produce footballers that can compete at the highest level against opponents from all over the world.

But it isn't. At the top end, clubs have caught up (to a degree) but overall English (and the rest of the UK) football has yet to take this on board. The fact that the PL is the most 'cosmopolitan' league in the world is very proof of this - because even the top clubs are reliant on players of requisite technical ability developed outside of England. Show me, for example, one genuine English playmaker since Gasgoigne? Just one. Compare that to, for example, Argentina, who have had Veron, Riquelme, D'Allesandro, or Spain, with Xavi and Iniesta.

Yes, 15 years ago it had a lot of truth to it. Now? It's bullshit, spoken by people with an axe to grind.

But it isn't. It really isn't.

This is pure tautology. It's sod all to do with anything that anyone controls. Brazil has technically gifted players because they have a culture of producing technically gifted players. Brilliant, what conclusion is anyone supposed to draw from that?

Bollocks. When Brasil was a largely rural country it may just have been favourable coincidence; but Brasil has changed enormously, the majority now live in built-up urban areas, and they have had to introduce a structure which replicates earlier conditions but in an organised fashion - which is why futsal and beach football have become so important. I keep telling you to read up on it to save continually embarrassing yourself, yet you are determined to carry on regardless.

When?

Here, you tit:

You've sod all idea what you're talking about, basically.

You're memory can't be this short, surely? You are the one who decided to start deriding me as knowing fuck all just because I don't share your frankly one-eyed view of football apparently gleamed from reading the wisdoms of Rodney Marsh in the fucking Star.

And I am not saying I am this great expert - in fact I was making the very opposite point. However, your opinions are probably the most ill-informed yet exceedingly arrogant that I have ever encountered. You could write what you know about football on a fucking rizla.

 

[Proper Tidy]

s'okay, here it is.

No, I said beach football - it isn't just Brasilians playing on the beach. That is what it was, initially, but they now organise it into leagues, and have developed a stand-alone sport with specific rules, precisely to aid development. They saw what worked in an ad-hoc fashion, took it on board, and developed it as a training method.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Fuck me you are petty - you can selectively quote all you like, but the debate on this thread and the one that preceded it has been about the qualities and achievements of different national teams.

Is it really too much to expect you to engage with what I'm actually writing about? I'm not selectively quoting. I'm quoting, verbatim, the part of the conversation that was being referred to.

Bullshit it is outdated. The Dutch league produces a huge amount of talent - again, perhaps you should look at the squad list of your local team - and what is more, the Dutch do this from a population of fifteen million not sixty million.

My local team: Rayo Vallecano, has no Dutch players at all. My team from back home, Ipswich Town, has no Dutch players, or players who received their footballing education in Holland.

Technique is irrelevant. Spoken like a true Englishman.

Fuck sake, how explicit do I have to be for you to not misinterpet shit? FUTSAL is what I was referring to. Are you dim or disingenuous?

But we're back to square one, aren't we? Vast population, favourable economic conditions, strongest league system in the world, one of the two contenders for strongest top flights, and football is the dominant sport - yet not only are you not the best in the world, you don't even come close. That is mediocre. You are still yet to put across anything that would prove or even suggest otherwise.

Yeah, it's mediocre. We've got no right to expect to be great just cause we really like football. Why does my lack of disappointment anger you so?

What do you not understand? If the overall structure produced more quality players then England would have a greater pool of players to choose from, instead of limiting themselves to a relatively small pool produced by a small number of elite academies. This is why Brasil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, Germany and the Netherlands succeed - because their top players come from a much wider pool of players. It isn't a difficult concept to understand, unless of course you are being deliberately obtuse.

How wide a pool of players do you need do make a decent squad of 23? Fuck it, how many players in the other top sides receive their football education outside of a professional academy anyway?

Yet neither are cliches. Here is the acid test for you - if those are cliches, then google them, and see how many results you get. Idiot.

Right, you're telling me that England = grit, determination, lack of technical ability - is not a cliche?

Show me, for example, one genuine English playmaker since Gasgoigne? Just one. Compare that to, for example, Argentina, who have had Veron, Riquelme, D'Allesandro, or Spain, with Xavi and Iniesta.

Highly subjective. For example what the fuck is the utterly shite D'Alessandro doing on your list. A genuine playmaker in the 10 years or so since Gascoigne retired? How often do players of the quality of Gascoigne come along? Will Paul Scholes, do you?



But it isn't. It really isn't.

Bollocks. When Brasil was a largely rural country it may just have been favourable coincidence; but Brasil has changed enormously, the majority now live in built-up urban areas, and they have had to introduce a structure which replicates earlier conditions but in an organised fashion - which is why futsal and beach football have become so important. I keep telling you to read up on it to save continually embarrassing yourself, yet you are determined to carry on regardless.

See, I disagree that futsal and beach football have anything to do with it. It's an opinion. It's not embarrassing to hold it. You are massively arrogant.

You're memory can't be this short, surely? You are the one who decided to start deriding me as knowing fuck all just because I don't share your frankly one-eyed view of football apparently gleamed from reading the wisdoms of Rodney Marsh in the fucking Star.

Read the conversation again you thick fuck.

And I am not saying I am this great expert - in fact I was making the very opposite point. However, your opinions are probably the most ill-informed yet exceedingly arrogant that I have ever encountered. You could write what you know about football on a fucking rizla.

Pathetic.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Is it really too much to expect you to engage with what I'm actually writing about? I'm not selectively quoting. I'm quoting, verbatim, the part of the conversation that was being referred to.

No, you are quoting abstract quotes out of context in an attempt to move the goalposts of the debate.

My local team: Rayo Vallecano, has no Dutch players at all. My team from back home, Ipswich Town, has no Dutch players, or players who received their footballing education in Holland.

Well, there we go. Madrid, on the other hand, have a load of Dutch players. Likewise, you only have to look at the number of Dutch coaches around the world to recognise that they are doing something right. But apparently even mentioning the Dutch is a 'cliche'.

Fuck sake, how explicit do I have to be for you to not misinterpet shit? FUTSAL is what I was referring to. Are you dim or disingenuous?

Yes, and Futsal is a technical game which doesn't involve contact played within a small playing area. It's whole point is to develop technical ability. What do you not get about that?

Yeah, it's mediocre. We've got no right to expect to be great just cause we really like football. Why does my lack of disappointment anger you so?

But it isn't 'just because you really like football' is it? It is because you have the best infrastructure, the strongest professional club system, one of the strongest top flights, and lots of wealth. You continually avoid these points.

How wide a pool of players do you need do make a decent squad of 23? Fuck it, how many players in the other top sides receive their football education outside of a professional academy anyway?

Blimey. The larger the pool, the more chance of a stronger 23. Hardly a revelation is it? In fact, it is something you've cited yourself when highlighting Brasil's population, you selective wanker.

Right, you're telling me that England = grit, determination, lack of technical ability - is not a cliche?

Grit and determination (copyright Alan Hansen) was cited as an example of the cliches that abound around English football you fuckwit, so yes of course it is a cliche. It is a cliche employed by people in the UK as some sort of counterweight to a lack of technical proficiency, just like the mythical 'passion'. And English players generally lacking technical ability - no, that isn't a cliche. It is just true.

Highly subjective. For example what the fuck is the utterly shite D'Alessandro doing on your list. A genuine playmaker in the 10 years or so since Gascoigne retired? How often do players of the quality of Gascoigne come along? Will Paul Scholes, do you?

Utterly shite D'Allesando? Not sure about that. Inconsistent and now fading, admittedly. The point is that he is a playmaker. You ask how often such players - ie Gazza - come along? Well that depends. In Spain and Argentina, a lot more often than in England. Why do you think that could be? Ah.

Scholes is/was a quality player, but categorically not a playmaker in the mould of the aforementioned players. Perhaps it would help your (limited) understanding if instead of playmaker I said a traditional no 10 (or no 8 in Spain)?

See, I disagree that futsal and beach football have anything to do with it. It's an opinion. It's not embarrassing to hold it. You are massively arrogant.

Yes, of course - games that promote technique and close ball control have nothing whatsoever to do with why nations that play those games have better... technique and close ball control. Wow.

Read the conversation again you thick fuck.


Pathetic.

If I read the conversation again, I am still going to see that you were the dickhead that decided to initiate this twatty tactic of saying 'you know fuck all about football hur hur'.

You fucking thick cunt.

 

[Lo Siento.]

No, you are quoting abstract quotes out of context in an attempt to move the goalposts of the debate.

If I can't read stuff that's there in black and white and not distort it, then there's fuck all point in my talking to you.

Well, there we go. Madrid, on the other hand, have a load of Dutch players. Likewise, you only have to look at the number of Dutch coaches around the world to recognise that they are doing something right.

Errr, and? The premier league still produces far more world class players than the Eredivisie.

Yes, and Futsal is a technical game which doesn't involve contact played within a small playing area. It's whole point is to develop technical ability. What do you not get about that?

I get it. It's just not a very big factor in developing footballers. You don't think English kids play five-a-side?

But it isn't 'just because you really like football' is it? It is because you have the best infrastructure, the strongest professional club system, one of the strongest top flights, and lots of wealth. You continually avoid these points.

And it makes no difference. So what? What, is this information, supposed to make me hang my head in shame at how bad we are? We do ok at football, I'm happy enough.

Blimey. The larger the pool, the more chance of a stronger 23. Hardly a revelation is it? In fact, it is something you've cited yourself when highlighting Brasil's population, you selective wanker.

Bigger population means more footballers. Having a good grassroots doesn't necessarilly mean having elite class professional footballers of a higher standard.

Grit and determination (copyright Alan Hansen) was cited as an example of the cliches that abound around English football you fuckwit, so yes of course it is a cliche. It is a cliche employed by people in the UK as some sort of counterweight to a lack of technical proficiency, just like the mythical 'passion'. And English players generally lacking technical ability - no, that isn't a cliche. It is just true.

Except it isn't said by people in the UK anymore. Anyone in the UK uttering it would be rightly regarded as a dinosaur.

Utterly shite D'Allesando? Not sure about that. Inconsistent and now fading, admittedly. The point is that he is a playmaker. You ask how often such players - ie Gazza - come along? Well that depends. In Spain and Argentina, a lot more often than in England. Why do you think that could be? Ah.

Scholes is/was a quality player, but categorically not a playmaker in the mould of the aforementioned players. Perhaps it would help your (limited) understanding if instead of playmaker I said a traditional no 10 (or no 8 in Spain)?

I'd be interested in what criteria you would use to categorise Xavi and Veron with D'Alessandro, Iniesta and Riquelme, which excludes Scholes.

As for Spain, give me more examples than Xavi and Iniesta? Before those two Spain had Valeron, a player no better than say, Joe Cole.

Yes, of course - games that promote technique and close ball control have nothing whatsoever to do with why nations that play those games have better... technique and close ball control. Wow.

Because the kids at academies in the UK don't do anything to promote technique and ball control. Because most pro footballers learnt their trade playing beach football and futsal?

If I read the conversation again, I am still going to see that you were the dickhead that decided to initiate this twatty tactic of saying 'you know fuck all about football hur hur'.

You fucking thick cunt.

Except I didn't say that, and it's there in black and white, where anyone less one-eyed than you can read it, and see that's a comment about your knowledge of player development in Brazil. Aside from that, believe whatever the fuck you like.

 

[Proper Tidy]

If I can't read stuff that's there in black and white and not distort it, then there's fuck all point in my talking to you.

What? So if you can't distort people's words then there is no point? How odd.

Errr, and? The premier league still produces far more world class players than the Eredivisie.

How disingenuous is that? So from the way you phrase this, I take it you are now trying to take credit for foreign players 'developed' (ie poached) by PL clubs?

Perhaps you think England has produced players equivelent to the likes of Cruyff or Van Basten? Perhaps you think it is entirely coincidental that most of the top European sides have Dutch players but not English players?

I get it. It's just not a very big factor in developing footballers. You don't think English kids play five-a-side?

Five a side and futsal is not the same at all, which is precisely why the likes of United and Chelsea now have their youngsters play futsal. You tit.

And it makes no difference. So what? What, is this information, supposed to make me hang my head in shame at how bad we are? We do ok at football, I'm happy enough.

I'm not asking you to hang your head in shame. It might at least make you consider the possibility that England still has a huge amount to do to catch up with development.

Bigger population means more footballers. Having a good grassroots doesn't necessarilly mean having elite class professional footballers of a higher standard.

You are an idiot. Having a good grassroots means precisely having a higher standard of players, elite or otherwise. In England, unless you are lucky enough to join an elite club between the ages of seven to ten then you can more or less kiss goodbye to ever being a top player. This inevitably reduces the size of the pool of players. Ffs.

Except it isn't said by people in the UK anymore. Anyone in the UK uttering it would be rightly regarded as a dinosaur.

Yes it is. Do you never read the papers, or watch TV? For fucks sake. Hansen says it every week. As does Shearer and just about every English football journalist.

I'd be interested in what criteria you would use to categorise Xavi and Veron with D'Alessandro, Iniesta and Riquelme, which excludes Scholes.

I've already given you the criteria - a playmaker, a number ten or a Spanish number eight. You really don't know much about football, do you? In what way could Scholes be called a traditional number ten, a traditional playmaker? He is an attacking midfielder.

As for Spain, give me more examples than Xavi and Iniesta? Before those two Spain had Valeron, a player no better than say, Joe Cole.

Valeron is not a playmaker either, but hey ho. Gaurdiola ring any bells for you?

Because the kids at academies in the UK don't do anything to promote technique and ball control. Because most pro footballers learnt their trade playing beach football and futsal?

Yes, the kids at academies do - its the kids outside of academies that is the worry, the kids playing in centre of excellences or just at amateur youth level. And yes, the kids at elite academies the world over play futsal and beach football; however, unsurprisingly, the countries that produce the most and the best talent have all the kids develop their technical ability, whether they are selected by the elite clubs or not. The end product is a much bigger pool of much better players. 2 + 2 = 4.

Except I didn't say that, and it's there in black and white, where anyone less one-eyed than you can read it, and see that's a comment about your knowledge of player development in Brazil. Aside from that, believe whatever the fuck you like.

Yes you did say it - I've already quoted it for you once! Here it is again -

You've sod all idea what you're talking about, basically.

Ooh, look, there it is in black and white, perhaps your one eye can read it. So I will believe it, because it is what you actually fucking said.

You lying wanker.

 

[mattie]

I'm impressed by the sheer diligence exhibited in this thread.