A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[Pickman's model]

Evidence for TW being at greater risk than women please. When did you last hear of a TW being murdered in the UK? THREE women a week have been murdered in the UK since the start of the year.

could you share your source?

 

[shygirl]

Do you doubt it Pickman's?

 

[Ranbay]

My ex had a sticker up saying "No Woman has a penis" i saw it the other week on a clock in the house.

She's going to this thing. i have nothing else to add or any knowledge other than these stated FACTS.

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you doubt it Pickman's?

do you have a source?

 

[ddraig]

"The hate campaigns are coming to Wales threatening to create a more hostile and abusive environment for trans people. Join other members of our communities in Wales and stand up to show support for the trans community and stop the spread of hate into Wales."

What a fucking lie, 'hate campaigns'. This is the dirty, nasty side of trans-activism. THIS is why the meetings are being held in secret, because we are being horribly misrepresented as bigots and haters and the potential consequences of that shit, are scary. Just ask Helen Steel or the woman who was punched in Hyde Park Corner.

As you've chosen to share this flier ddraig, do you honestly believe that Woman's Place UK and the people who plan to attend the meeting are spreading hate in wanting to question the impact of potential changes to the GRA on girls and women?

I am simply sharing an event, as you have

 

[Pickman's model]

shygirl i didn't doubt your claim that THREE women have been killed in the uk every week this year until you refused to share your source. according to 2018 19 women had been killed in the uk (i'm ignoring the murder in australia as not happening in uk) to 10/3/18. that's 1.9 women killed per week. i appreciate you may have different information and would be glad to see it, as you're making it sound even worse than the source i've found suggests.

 

[purenarcotic]

The average accepted stat is 2 women a week, I’ve never heard the 3 women a week. I believe (well I don’t believe really, I’ve heard it at conferences) it’s phrased as 2 women a week or one woman every 3 days - perhaps that’s where the 3 comes from?

The easiest source for this is the Femicide Census:

https://www.womensaid.org.uk/what-we-do/campaigning-and-influencing/femicide-census/

 

[Pickman's model]

The average accepted stat is 2 women a week, I’ve never heard the 3 women a week. I believe it’s phrased as 2 women a week or one woman every 3 days - perhaps that’s where the 3 comes from?

The easiest source for this is the Femicide Census:

https://www.womensaid.org.uk/what-we-do/campaigning-and-influencing/femicide-census/

cheers! but not seeing any 2018 figures there.

 

[purenarcotic]

cheers! but not seeing any 2018 figures there.

No there won’t be yet, too early in the year innit - the source you’ve provided from Karen will be the most up to date for 2018 so far.

 

[Pickman's model]

No there won’t be yet, too early in the year innit - the source you’ve provided from Karen will be the most up to date for 2018 so far.

yeh - i'll be interested to see where shygirl gets her information from.

 

[shygirl]

I am simply sharing an event, as you have

Of course, I see that. I was simply asking you if you agree with their statements. I mean, I shared an event because I support it, I wouldn't have shared it if I didn't.

 

[shygirl]

Karen ingala smith Counting Dead Women. I'm in work at mo, so just jumping on here when I can.

 

[shygirl]

2018

 

[shygirl]

shygirl i didn't doubt your claim that THREE women have been killed in the uk every week this year until you refused to share your source. according to 2018 19 women had been killed in the uk (i'm ignoring the murder in australia as not happening in uk) to 10/3/18. that's 1.9 women killed per week. i appreciate you may have different information and would be glad to see it, as you're making it sound even worse than the source i've found suggests.

Just saw that you've already sourced the link I sent. I didn't refuse to share source, btw, I just asked you if you doubted the figure. I'm at work, so can't be on every point straight away.

 

[shygirl]

2 - 3 women per week murdered. Just let that sink in.

 

[Pickman's model]

Karen ingala smith Counting Dead Women. I'm in work at mo, so just jumping on here when I can.

2018

cheers - that's the one i link to in #425. she lists 20 women killed to 10 march. one of the killings took place in australia, so i'm discounting that as not in the uk. that's 19 killings in 10 weeks, which by my calculation is 1.9 women killed per week. while horrific this isn't three women killed a week.

 

[shygirl]

I read somewhere else, on FB I think, that the figure is currently 3 per week so far this year.

 

[Pickman's model]

I read somewhere else, on FB I think, that the figure is currently 3 per week so far this year.

unless there's been a great upsurge since 10/3/18 then it's just not true.

that isn't to say that 1.9/2 is an acceptable rate of violence.

 

[Edie]

Why does it matter? Two women, three, one every three days, it’s still terrible. As is the violence and hatred meted out to trans gender folk.

It’s fucking crass to turn this into ‘whose more fucked by patriarchy’ debate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why does it matter? Two women, three, one every three days, it’s still terrible. As is the violence and hatred meted out to trans gender folk.

It’s fucking crass to turn this into ‘whose more fucked by patriarchy’ debate.

i'm not turning this into a who's more fucked by patriarchy debate. i've not denied it's still terrible, in fact i have said explicitly it's terrible. but let's not let that get in the way of a barney.

 

[Edie]

Has there been any attempts to have meetings where both sides put their worries forward and actual conversations are had about solutions? In the real world I mean, not on bloody social media where all the idiots hide.

 

[nogojones]

Evidence for TW being at greater risk than women please. When did you last hear of a TW being murdered in the UK?

Naomi Hersi, 36, was found stabbed to death at Heathrow Palace in London at 10:30 on Sunday 18 March 2018

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/26/transgender-woman-naomi-hersi-murdered-london-in-hotel-room/

 

[Eeepet]

Has there been any attempts to have meetings where both sides put their worries forward and actual conversations are had about solutions? In the real world I mean, not on bloody social media where all the idiots hide.

The Cardiff event that Shygirl posted up included an explicit invitation to trans people to come along (from Helen Mary Jones). I am attending with this exact intention and a desire to understand different vantage points in order to clarify my own. Postings that speak of the need to 'counter Terf hate' & 'hate campaigns' suggest that an open debate will be difficult however. I'm trying to stay hopeful but to be honest my current feelings are a combination of fear and distress.

 

[Shechemite]

More broadly, why is it necessary to support self-ID in order to support the rights of trans people around housing, sexual, domestic (and any other forms) of violence) and discrimination at work?

Can’t one be opposed to (and support the fight against) discrimination and violence against trans people, and still oppose self-ID/‘trans women are women’?

 

[spanglechick]

Evidence for TW being at greater risk than women please. When did you last hear of a TW being murdered in the UK? THREE women a week have been murdered in the UK since the start of the year.

I won't address the second part of the post, since you've been fairly comprehensively shown that the number is two rather than three (still shocking).

The problem with answering your question is twofold. Firstly, we're talking small numbers, both of trans women in the uk population, and of uk murder rates. One murder in a year can skew even long-term stats. In the US where both those things are higher the figure most often cited is 4.3x higher than any other group. But that isn't what you asked. You asked about the uk.

The second problem is knowing how many trans people and trans women there actually are. Estimates vary between 0.1 and 1% (depending, I guess, on definition of terms, and on the level at which a trans woman has formalised her status). The rate of trans people being murdered in the last ten years is somewhere between one every 14-18months. (Again this figure depends who you ask - and your terms. Does death following a violent hate attack count? Etc). Obviously that's minuscule compared to the rates of violent killing of women. But natal women are half the uk population.

I'm not a fan of maths but even from fairly quick mental arithmetic it becomes clear that drawing a definitive conclusion when the 0.1-1% variable is so large, and the number of victims so small in numerical terms, with such scope for variance given one fewer or more murder in a year... is essentially so unreliable as to be meaningless.

I will absolutely concede, though, that I was guilty of repeating the rate ofviolence as a truism without investigating the facts such as they are.

 

[spanglechick]

More broadly, why is it necessary to support self-ID in order to support the rights of trans people around housing, sexual, domestic (and any other forms) of violence) and discrimination at work?

Can’t one be opposed to (and support the fight against) discrimination and violence against trans people, and still oppose self-ID/‘trans women are women’?

That's kind of the point trans activists are making.

Self ID doesn't impact on any of those things. The law change won't change any of those things.

It therefore won't make any change to the safety of women. Trans people will not have more access than they have already.

 

[Shechemite]

That's kind of the point trans activists are making.

Self ID doesn't impact on any of those things. The law change won't change any of those things.

It therefore won't make any change to the safety of women. Trans people will not have more access than they have already.

I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

The point I’m getting at is that I support the rights of trans people to be treated as human beings, not to be subject to violence and discrimination.

I don’t agree with self-ID of ‘gender’ (because I don’t agree that’s how gender works), I don’t think ‘trans women are women’ (because I agree with sex based definitions).

I don’t accept there’s any incongruence in my position. I’m happy to be shown I’m wrong.

 

[8ball]

I don’t agree with self-ID of ‘gender’ (because I don’t agree that’s how gender works).

Do you have a viewpoint on how it does work?

 

[Pickman's model]

I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

The point I’m getting at is that I support the rights of trans people to be treated as human beings, not to be subject to violence and discrimination.

I don’t agree with self-ID of ‘gender’ (because I don’t agree that’s how gender works), I don’t think ‘trans women are women’ (because I agree with sex based definitions).

I don’t accept there’s any incongruence in my position. I’m happy to be shown I’m wrong.

do you think people have any agency wr2 gender?

 

[Shechemite]

Do you have a viewpoint on how it does work?

Yes

There was even a whole thread (‘transgender/perplexed’) where the nature and function of gender was discussed.

I recall stating the view that gender operates as a social process assigning obligations/roles/‘sins’ to people based on their sex, and that men get a somewhat better deal out of this process.

I can’t claim it to be a novel idea.