A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales
- Thread starter shygirl
- Start date
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
Athos
Well-Known Member
so what eh!! if they're not normal fuck em, they should fit in or fuck off
Errr, is that addressed at me? If so, you don't seem to have read/understood what I wrote.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
oh come on
you don't see this as problematic?
'all kinds of nutters making all kinds of claims' comparing people with gender dysphoria to deluded people
society/the majority knows best/ fit in or fuck off (or at the very least keep quiet)
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Please don't put things I didn't say in inverted commas; they are for direct quotes. The point wasn't about whether or not being trans is a delusion (I don't think it is), but to say that identities are largely socially (rather then individually) constructed; that's not something that can be wished away. And it's not value judgement; it's not to suggest that society 'knows best', or that trans people should "fit in or fuck off".
I don't think that either gender identity as expression of biological sex or societal roles is adequate really. I think something important that could be taken from this is that it shows how complex the development of a sense of self is. I work with children every day who struggle to know who they are, they may have been abused by their parents, they don't want to identify with a father who was violent towards their mother, they don't want identify with a mother who drank and died from alcohol related causes. Who are they then? From who do they come from? Who will they become? Who am I? isn't a simple question answered by biology or socially ascribed roles. These questions are much starker to those who have suffered early trauma in their families, but I think these struggles are common to us all. And a sense of being a boy or a girl, or a man or a woman, is part of this very complex process of finding things in common, discovering difference, in those with whom we live*.
* eta because there is so much potential for misunderstanding here, that those differences and commonalities may not be obvious, visible, or expected. Don't know if that's clearer, probably not.
* eta because there is so much potential for misunderstanding here, that those differences and commonalities may not be obvious, visible, or expected. Don't know if that's clearer, probably not.
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Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Do trans people kill them?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Sometimes, yes. Why?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Am I wrong?
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
This.
Identity versus identification. My annoyance with the current politics around identity[ies] stems from this (when talking about race, "class", mental health and such)... and my frustration with how self-id is [not] being debated when man/woman are both natural categories (different because biologies and whatnot) and identifications in society.
If you follow the thread, you'll see that
What's a trans lesbian?
Er, not sure your question is relevant. If you look at the posts leading up to mine, you'll understand the context.
What is the connection between sexuality and trans gender? Are most trans gender people straight (ie if they remained their original gender they would be gay)? A trans lesbian would be a trans gender woman who fancies women.
There's not any connection in the sense of one causing the other. Trans people can be straight, gay, bi or any other sexual orientation just like cis/non trans/[insert preferred terminology here] people.
There's probably stats somewhere but I cba to look right now
(my head's telling me I've read something saying trans people are more likely to be LGB+ but I might be confusing multiple half-remembered facts there)I don't accept that a transwoman can be a lesbian. There seem to be a lot of male-bodied TW accusing lesbians of transphobia cos they don't want to suck cock. There's many trans women who would never make this demand, but the loudest voices out there at the moment are from the former.
There's not any connection in the sense of one causing the other. Trans people can be straight, gay, bi or any other sexual orientation just like cis/non trans/[insert preferred terminology here] people.
There's probably stats somewhere but I cba to look right now
That sounds about right from stuff I've seen/read in the last year.
Sunset Tree
Well-Known Member
Lily Madigan got some stick recently for coming out as a gay woman. I.e. is a male bodied person who is attracted to female bodied people really gay? I know the response is they're a woman on the inside and have always been a woman. It comes back to that key sticking point: whether you think dysphoria means you are a woman and internal identity matters more than physical reality.
(Obligatory "can't speak for any other trans people besides myself" disclaimer)
Transition isn't just about that stuff though. I completely agree that people should be free to be & do what they want without pressure to conform to gender roles, but I don't see that necessarily being a solution or alternative to transition.
My breasts aren't gender roles. My voice pitch isn't a gender role. The hair on my face—and my chest and my stomach and increasingly everyfuckingwhere—isn't a gender role. Neither are my genitals or the hormone levels that affect those things. If I woke up tomorrow to find the patriarchy had been dismantled and gender roles abolished and all the rest of it I'd be pleased, but I'd still be trans.
To be honest it’s not really up to you? If a trans woman is attracted to women, then that’s just how it is?
It is of course utterly unacceptable that any person (trans woman or not) should demand anyone else perform sex acts on them. And would very much hope and expect that not to happen in real life?
I see. Thanks for that iona
So it’s much more ‘wrong body’ for you?
(Apologies for crude phrasing).
Iona what would you like to see in terms of changes? (To society, not yourself xx)
I respect your point, but I don't accept that a male who identifies as female can be a lesbian. It's not from a place of bigotry, it just doesn't make sense to me. Transwomen who are attracted to women are, imo, basically straight.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Do you know any trans women?
Anyway. One of the trans lesbians I know transitioned in their early twenties and has only had girlfriends before and after. Another was married and in their thirties, and she is still with her wife.
Edie Trans seems to be unrelated to sexuality.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
So what would you call a cis lesbian, who was happy to be in a relationship with their trans woman partner, but not with cis men?
Because they do exist, and I'd say they get to have the last word on whether they're in a lesbian relationship or not.
I’m pretty long in the tooth too, and I find it gets very complicated quickly when you add in trying to think about sexuality. I guess by that stage it very definitely isn’t any of our business though. After all trans women cannot demand that lesbians find them attractive, any more than lesbians can or would demand that straight women find them attractive.
I think that us non trans women can raise concerns about trans women being in spaces where we feel vulnerable (wards, changing rooms) and in representing us in politics, but it’s surely not our concern whether they consider themselves lesbians?
The more I think about this issue the harder it is to pin down what exactly it is that feels threatening. The likelihood of a trans woman who is gay raping me in a changing room seems very improbable. She’d probably be more concerned with getting her cossie on under a towel while not dropping her knickers in a puddle like me. But nonetheless it still makes me anxious that I might not know a male bodied person was there.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
The conflation of sex and gender in law will become a problem for lesbians if they are prevented from free associating with the kind of people who coined the word for themselves in the first place (women).
The Vanishing Point: A Reflection Upon Lesbian Erasure
The Vanishing Point: A Reflection Upon Lesbian Erasure
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I mean it's complicated and shit but more or less, basically, yes.
Not ignoring second question but I'm going bed now.. (fully automated luxury gay space communism would be nice though)
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
This feels like a very honest and open post. I don't think there are many trans people who would take umbrage with what you've said (not that I can speak for them). The last paragraph is what this latest self-id argument is coming down to.
1) You're right, trans women will have the same things on their mind as you when in these spaces.
2) Self-id for the GRC will have no effect on trans women being in a changing room (or other places like that) because they're already there, self-id already exists, we already don't have checkpoints with people asking to see birth certificates on entry.
3) While male violence towards women exists, there is nothing inherently violent about a penis, and it's not particularly helpful in the long-term to mix up rightful fear and anxiety about male violence with the fact that some (not all) trans women have a penis.
4) If a trans person is violent, that is unlikely to change the day they undergo genital surgery, so a focus on the genitalia isn't particularly helpful in this regard.
5) Where do trans men go? Would you feel more comfortable around a big, hairy, muscular, burly trans man in the same changing room as you, even if you knew he didn't have a penis? If not, why? If we're trying to smash gender stereotypes so everyone can feel comfortable wearing what they want and presenting as they want but without feeling the need to change their gender (which is what many anti-trans feminists suggest) then we should feel very comfortable in a changing room with an afab person who presents outwardly as very masculine - up until the point they turn around and say "I'm a man"?
These are complex issues, but it's important we try to drill down to get at where our anxieties lie, what preconceptions inform them, and which structures shape them.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Lol! Seriously? If a woman posted any of the three quotes below on Twitter it'd not be long before they were, at best, branded a bigot, or, more likely, told to choke on a girl-dick, or abused in some other violent and misogynistic terms.
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