A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[8ball]

Where did I leave those deckchairs..?

 

[ddraig]

If 'gender identity' is just 'how you see yourself', then it's not hard to see that some others may have their own 'gender identity', or that it could be at odds with their sex (in fact, unless you think every trans person is lying, it's pretty undeniable). But, so what? Why is how people see themselves determinative of what they are? Some people think they're the reincarnation of Napoleon, or that they're God's messenger. Why should an individualistic conception of gender trump a socially constructed one? Particularly for feminists? After all, historically, women have been oppressed as a result of the material reality of their (as a class) biology, not because of how they saw themselves; and that oppresssion has been enacted upon them by society, not from within the individual. All of which is a different question from whether or not we should treat people compassionately, although it becomes blurred where they overlap - the philosphical question of 'what is a woman', and the moral question of how a society should treat trans people.

so what eh!! if they're not normal fuck em, they should fit in or fuck off

 

[Athos]

so what eh!! if they're not normal fuck em, they should fit in or fuck off

Errr, is that addressed at me? If so, you don't seem to have read/understood what I wrote.

 

[ddraig]

Errr, is that addressed at me? If so, you don't seem to have read/understood what I wrote.

oh come on

But, so what? Why is how people see themselves determinative of what they are? Some people think they're the reincarnation of Napoleon, or that they're God's messenger.

you don't see this as problematic?
'all kinds of nutters making all kinds of claims' comparing people with gender dysphoria to deluded people

Why should an individualistic conception of gender trump a socially constructed one?

society/the majority knows best/ fit in or fuck off (or at the very least keep quiet)

 

[Athos]

oh come on


you don't see this as problematic?
"all kinds of nutters making all kinds of claims" comparing people with gender dysphoria to deluded people

society/the majority knows best/ fit in or fuck off (or at the very least keep quiet)

Please don't put things I didn't say in inverted commas; they are for direct quotes. The point wasn't about whether or not being trans is a delusion (I don't think it is), but to say that identities are largely socially (rather then individually) constructed; that's not something that can be wished away. And it's not value judgement; it's not to suggest that society 'knows best', or that trans people should "fit in or fuck off".

 

[8ball]

Wow, that escalated even quicker than expected!

 

[Red Cat]

I don't think that either gender identity as expression of biological sex or societal roles is adequate really. I think something important that could be taken from this is that it shows how complex the development of a sense of self is. I work with children every day who struggle to know who they are, they may have been abused by their parents, they don't want to identify with a father who was violent towards their mother, they don't want identify with a mother who drank and died from alcohol related causes. Who are they then? From who do they come from? Who will they become? Who am I? isn't a simple question answered by biology or socially ascribed roles. These questions are much starker to those who have suffered early trauma in their families, but I think these struggles are common to us all. And a sense of being a boy or a girl, or a man or a woman, is part of this very complex process of finding things in common, discovering difference, in those with whom we live*.

* eta because there is so much potential for misunderstanding here, that those differences and commonalities may not be obvious, visible, or expected. Don't know if that's clearer, probably not.

 

[Vintage Paw]

2 - 3 women per week murdered. Just let that sink in.

Do trans people kill them?

 

[Athos]

Do trans people kill them?

Sometimes, yes. Why?

 

[Shechemite]

I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

The point I’m getting at is that I support the rights of trans people to be treated as human beings, not to be subject to violence and discrimination.

I don’t agree with self-ID of ‘gender’ (because I don’t agree that’s how gender works), I don’t think ‘trans women are women’ (because I agree with sex based definitions).

I don’t accept there’s any incongruence in my position. I’m happy to be shown I’m wrong.

Am I wrong?

 

[MochaSoul]

It's not about accountability or blame. It's just about how the process of identity works, and what consequences flow from it. You can only choose the identity you present, you cannot choose the identity that is imposed. It's been studied a lot, going back at least 30 years.

One of the seminal pieces of research was this one concerning the identity that comes with being homeless, written way back in 1987, and it's well worth a read. If you can't be arsed to read the whole thing, I suggest focusing on the conclusion that starts on p29 of the pdf (which is p1363 of the journal). That's where he discusses the implications of his ethnographic research for our understanding of the wider model of identity. On p1367 he starts getting into tension between imposed (i.e. "social") and adopted (i.e. "personal") identity:



In his concluding paragraph, he sums up the central question:



This basic idea gets missed a lot when debates solely concentrate on the identities people claim for themselves. It's like one half of 30 years of research has been totally ignored or, more realistically, that people are using concepts like "identity" without understanding that although this is straightforward on the surface, there's actually a lot of depth to it that goes beyond what you can fit into a twitter soundbite.

This.
Identity versus identification. My annoyance with the current politics around identity[ies] stems from this (when talking about race, "class", mental health and such)... and my frustration with how self-id is [not] being debated when man/woman are both natural categories (different because biologies and whatnot) and identifications in society.

 

[shygirl]

Do trans people kill them?

If you follow the thread, you'll see that

I just said a small proportion of trans lesbians hold those views. Not sure of how your post refutes mine.

What's a trans lesbian?

 

[shygirl]

Do trans people kill them?

Er, not sure your question is relevant. If you look at the posts leading up to mine, you'll understand the context.

 

[Edie]

If you follow the thread, you'll see that


What's a trans lesbian?

What is the connection between sexuality and trans gender? Are most trans gender people straight (ie if they remained their original gender they would be gay)? A trans lesbian would be a trans gender woman who fancies women.

 

[iona]

What is the connection between sexuality and trans gender? Are most trans gender people straight (ie if they remained their original gender they would be gay)? A trans lesbian would be a trans gender woman who fancies women.

There's not any connection in the sense of one causing the other. Trans people can be straight, gay, bi or any other sexual orientation just like cis/non trans/[insert preferred terminology here] people.

There's probably stats somewhere but I cba to look right now (my head's telling me I've read something saying trans people are more likely to be LGB+ but I might be confusing multiple half-remembered facts there)

 

[shygirl]

I don't accept that a transwoman can be a lesbian. There seem to be a lot of male-bodied TW accusing lesbians of transphobia cos they don't want to suck cock. There's many trans women who would never make this demand, but the loudest voices out there at the moment are from the former.

 

[shygirl]

There's not any connection in the sense of one causing the other. Trans people can be straight, gay, bi or any other sexual orientation just like cis/non trans/[insert preferred terminology here] people.

There's probably stats somewhere but I cba to look right now (my head's telling me I've read something saying trans people are more likely to be LGB+ but I might be confusing multiple half-remembered facts there)

That sounds about right from stuff I've seen/read in the last year.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Lily Madigan got some stick recently for coming out as a gay woman. I.e. is a male bodied person who is attracted to female bodied people really gay? I know the response is they're a woman on the inside and have always been a woman. It comes back to that key sticking point: whether you think dysphoria means you are a woman and internal identity matters more than physical reality.

 

[iona]

<snip> I’m not trans gender, so I say this with caution. But maybe ‘feeling’ the wrong gender is feeling you are better suited to that position in society? Maybe hormones in utero, or the structure of your brain, or your natural disposition, or just a choice. No mind why, other than from scientific curiosity.

But I think I’m more like MadeInBedlam when I think that maybe the better solution is to allow people to cherry pick the parts of gender roles that fit and sod the rest. <snip>

(Obligatory "can't speak for any other trans people besides myself" disclaimer)

Transition isn't just about that stuff though. I completely agree that people should be free to be & do what they want without pressure to conform to gender roles, but I don't see that necessarily being a solution or alternative to transition.

My breasts aren't gender roles. My voice pitch isn't a gender role. The hair on my face—and my chest and my stomach and increasingly everyfuckingwhere—isn't a gender role. Neither are my genitals or the hormone levels that affect those things. If I woke up tomorrow to find the patriarchy had been dismantled and gender roles abolished and all the rest of it I'd be pleased, but I'd still be trans.

 

[Edie]

I don't accept that a transwoman can be a lesbian. There seem to be a lot of male-bodied TW accusing lesbians of transphobia cos they don't want to suck cock. There's many trans women who would never make this demand, but the loudest voices out there at the moment are from the former.

To be honest it’s not really up to you? If a trans woman is attracted to women, then that’s just how it is?

It is of course utterly unacceptable that any person (trans woman or not) should demand anyone else perform sex acts on them. And would very much hope and expect that not to happen in real life?

 

[Edie]

(Obligatory "can't speak for any other trans people besides myself" disclaimer)

Transition isn't just about that stuff though. I completely agree that people should be free to be & do what they want without pressure to conform to gender roles, but I don't see that necessarily being a solution or alternative to transition.

My breasts aren't gender roles. My voice pitch isn't a gender role. The hair on my face—and my chest and my stomach and increasingly everyfuckingwhere—isn't a gender role. Neither are my genitals or the hormone levels that affect those things. If I woke up tomorrow to find the patriarchy had been dismantled and gender roles abolished and all the rest of it I'd be pleased, but I'd still be trans.

I see. Thanks for that iona

So it’s much more ‘wrong body’ for you?

(Apologies for crude phrasing).

Iona what would you like to see in terms of changes? (To society, not yourself xx)

 

[shygirl]

To be honest it’s not really up to you? If a trans woman is attracted to women, then that’s just how it is?

It is of course utterly unacceptable that any person (trans woman or not) should demand anyone else perform sex acts on them. And would very much hope and expect that not to happen in real life?

I respect your point, but I don't accept that a male who identifies as female can be a lesbian. It's not from a place of bigotry, it just doesn't make sense to me. Transwomen who are attracted to women are, imo, basically straight.

 

[shygirl]

For me, the definition of a lesbian is a female who is attracted to other females. Perhaps I'm too long in the tooth to see it otherwise.

 

[spanglechick]

I don't accept that a transwoman can be a lesbian. There seem to be a lot of male-bodied TW accusing lesbians of transphobia cos they don't want to suck cock. There's many trans women who would never make this demand, but the loudest voices out there at the moment are from the former.

Do you know any trans women?


Anyway. One of the trans lesbians I know transitioned in their early twenties and has only had girlfriends before and after. Another was married and in their thirties, and she is still with her wife.


Edie Trans seems to be unrelated to sexuality.

 

[spanglechick]

For me, the definition of a lesbian is a female who is attracted to other females. Perhaps I'm too long in the tooth to see it otherwise.

So what would you call a cis lesbian, who was happy to be in a relationship with their trans woman partner, but not with cis men?

Because they do exist, and I'd say they get to have the last word on whether they're in a lesbian relationship or not.

 

[Edie]

For me, the definition of a lesbian is a female who is attracted to other females. Perhaps I'm too long in the tooth to see it otherwise.

I’m pretty long in the tooth too, and I find it gets very complicated quickly when you add in trying to think about sexuality. I guess by that stage it very definitely isn’t any of our business though. After all trans women cannot demand that lesbians find them attractive, any more than lesbians can or would demand that straight women find them attractive.

I think that us non trans women can raise concerns about trans women being in spaces where we feel vulnerable (wards, changing rooms) and in representing us in politics, but it’s surely not our concern whether they consider themselves lesbians?

The more I think about this issue the harder it is to pin down what exactly it is that feels threatening. The likelihood of a trans woman who is gay raping me in a changing room seems very improbable. She’d probably be more concerned with getting her cossie on under a towel while not dropping her knickers in a puddle like me. But nonetheless it still makes me anxious that I might not know a male bodied person was there.

 

[MochaSoul]

The conflation of sex and gender in law will become a problem for lesbians if they are prevented from free associating with the kind of people who coined the word for themselves in the first place (women).

The Vanishing Point: A Reflection Upon Lesbian Erasure

 

[iona]

I see. Thanks for that iona

So it’s much more ‘wrong body’ for you?

(Apologies for crude phrasing).

Iona what would you like to see in terms of changes? (To society, not yourself xx)

I mean it's complicated and shit but more or less, basically, yes.

Not ignoring second question but I'm going bed now.. (fully automated luxury gay space communism would be nice though)

 

[Vintage Paw]

I’m pretty long in the tooth too, and I find it gets very complicated quickly when you add in trying to think about sexuality. I guess by that stage it very definitely isn’t any of our business though. After all trans women cannot demand that lesbians find them attractive, any more than lesbians can or would demand that straight women find them attractive.

I think that us non trans women can raise concerns about trans women being in spaces where we feel vulnerable (wards, changing rooms) and in representing us in politics, but it’s surely not our concern whether they consider themselves lesbians?

The more I think about this issue the harder it is to pin down what exactly it is that feels threatening. The likelihood of a trans woman who is gay raping me in a changing room seems very improbable. She’d probably be more concerned with getting her cossie on under a towel while not dropping her knickers in a puddle like me. But nonetheless it still makes me anxious that I might not know a male bodied person was there.

This feels like a very honest and open post. I don't think there are many trans people who would take umbrage with what you've said (not that I can speak for them). The last paragraph is what this latest self-id argument is coming down to.

1) You're right, trans women will have the same things on their mind as you when in these spaces.

2) Self-id for the GRC will have no effect on trans women being in a changing room (or other places like that) because they're already there, self-id already exists, we already don't have checkpoints with people asking to see birth certificates on entry.

3) While male violence towards women exists, there is nothing inherently violent about a penis, and it's not particularly helpful in the long-term to mix up rightful fear and anxiety about male violence with the fact that some (not all) trans women have a penis.

4) If a trans person is violent, that is unlikely to change the day they undergo genital surgery, so a focus on the genitalia isn't particularly helpful in this regard.

5) Where do trans men go? Would you feel more comfortable around a big, hairy, muscular, burly trans man in the same changing room as you, even if you knew he didn't have a penis? If not, why? If we're trying to smash gender stereotypes so everyone can feel comfortable wearing what they want and presenting as they want but without feeling the need to change their gender (which is what many anti-trans feminists suggest) then we should feel very comfortable in a changing room with an afab person who presents outwardly as very masculine - up until the point they turn around and say "I'm a man"?

These are complex issues, but it's important we try to drill down to get at where our anxieties lie, what preconceptions inform them, and which structures shape them.

 

[Athos]

I don't think there are many trans people who would take umbrage with what you've said (not that I can speak for them).

Lol! Seriously? If a woman posted any of the three quotes below on Twitter it'd not be long before they were, at best, branded a bigot, or, more likely, told to choke on a girl-dick, or abused in some other violent and misogynistic terms.

... trans women cannot demand that lesbians find them attractive, any more than lesbians can or would demand that straight women find them attractive.

I think that us non trans women can raise concerns about trans women being in spaces where we feel vulnerable (wards, changing rooms) and in representing us in politics...

... it still makes me anxious that I might not know a male bodied person was there.