A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[Mation]

How many times is it necessary to say it's nothing to do with trans and all to do with men and women's difficulties in a world dominated by them?

Doesn't that example give you a pretty good idea of the lengths a sexual ofender will go to given the tools to feed their sexual wants? If that guy had decided to id as a woman do you really feel that the bigotry charge on top of the women's abuse trauma is acceptable?

If you think it's nothing to do with being trans then why are you posting it here?

Sexual predators do not need to pretend to be women in order to abuse women, but in the unlikely event that someone wanted to, they could do so already.

 

[MochaSoul]

'trans-hacked brains'.

You're just a bigot, then.

What you think of me is your business but when people conflate gender with sex as they increasingly are without as much as thinking of the consequences of their reasoning I think it's fair to say their brains have been "hacked", and in this case by the latest developments in genderology - "trans-hacked".

 

[MochaSoul]

If you think it's nothing to do with being trans then why are you posting it here?

Sexual predators do not need to pretend to be women in order to abuse women, but in the unlikely event that someone wanted to, they could do so already.

They have and how nice of Pink news to frame it as an abuse of "trans rules" rather than an attack on women and girls.
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/02/18/man-abuses-trans-rules-to-strip-in-womans-bathroom/

 

[MochaSoul]

If you think it's nothing to do with being trans then why are you posting it here?

Sexual predators do not need to pretend to be women in order to abuse women, but in the unlikely event that someone wanted to, they could do so already.

We all know sexual offenders will offend. Do you think the law should make it easier for them and aren't women well within their rights to point out the ways in which proposed laws may make their lives that much more difficult?

 

[Edie]

If you think it's nothing to do with being trans then why are you posting it here?

Sexual predators do not need to pretend to be women in order to abuse women, but in the unlikely event that someone wanted to, they could do so already.

I think that’s true, and it’s pushing common sense to suggest that any significant threat would come from men ‘pretending’ to be women solely to gain access to abuse. I mean I’m sure it would happen, in the sense that given enough people at least a small number would be so damaged, but I’m not sure we should take it into account.

The thing that troubles me more is much more common or garden. And that’s simply that in a female space like a changing room where you’re temporarily naked, or in a toilet block, having a woman only space let’s you let your guard down a bit. Having people in there who are biologically male would feel threatening to me. Maybe that’s something that I could overcome, and in the future it’ll seem silly to of thought that. You just don’t know.

 

[Treacle Toes]

That wasn't my logic. I was highlighting the attitude that people in the majority don't see the need to describe themselves to the same extent as those in the minority. My mum has a similar objection to describing herself as straight. She is "normal" and therefore shouldn't have a label.

I was commenting on the logic in that tweet, highlighting that the logic used in it was that 'White cis women' are 'normal' by default even though it's trying to argue against that premise. I don't agree that being described as a black woman is the same as being described as a trans woman in the way it's being used in that tweet as a comparative.

 

[Mation]

What you think of me is your business but when people conflate gender with sex as they increasingly are without as much as thinking of the consequences of their reasoning I think it's fair to say their brains have been "hacked", and in this case by the latest developments in genderology - "trans-hacked".

I guess it must seem like that if you don't follow the reasoning, aside from whether you agree with it. I'm going to bow out of talking about this with you because I don't know how to have a conversation that doesn't have any logic to it. And that probably sounds patronising

 

[MochaSoul]

I think that’s true, and it’s pushing common sense to suggest that any significant threat would come from men ‘pretending’ to be women solely to gain access to abuse. I mean I’m sure it would happen, in the sense that given enough people at least a small number would be so damaged, but I’m not sure we should take it into account.

The thing that troubles me more is much more common or garden. And that’s simply that in a female space like a changing room where you’re temporarily naked, or in a toilet block, having a woman only space let’s you let your guard down a bit. Having people in there who are biologically male would feel threatening to me. Maybe that’s something that I could overcome, and in the future it’ll seem silly to of thought that. You just don’t know.

This is a good read on gender neutral toilets - The Thing about Toilets
The comments are telling. When it comes to girls starting puberty I cringe to think of schools policies on the subject.

Also this Miscarriages in pub toilets. Is gender neutral ready? is a good read on a forgotten aspect.

 

[Poot]

Nice to see you back Edie

These threads always make me a bit sad because we agree so strongly with so many things that I don't discuss irl because I know that I will be shouted down - even very simple feminism is difficult to discuss in many contexts irl. And my frustration is mainly that I can see it from both sides. On one hand I believe that trans women are women full stop. But on the other I couldn't possibly deny a woman's experience of needing a safe space which they view in a certain way. I think we've all said 'this is my experience, this should be what I am entitled to' and not been believed before. It sucks. So I wouldn't belittle that. But on reflection, for me, trans women are women and need to be treated as such. Everything else should be solved with cubicles/more toilets/changing rooms. Practical solutions. It's the least we ALL deserve, surely.

 

[shygirl]

And btw shygirl I would of liked to go to an event like that if it’d been in the north, although I agree that it may have been better if trans women were represented by speaker(s).

Somehow this debate needs to become less confrontational, because it seems to have scared people on both sides and a compromise needs to be reached.

Yes, it has Edie, and it's a crying shame. The aggression, no-platforming, as well as actual violence, and accusations of nazism and bigotry have largely come from trans-activists. Women have been vilified, abused and threatened for daring to raise concerns about proposed changes to the GRA. They have lost jobs, been thrown out of political parties and investigated for merely stating truths. The voices of transwomen who do not seek to bully their way into women and girls' safe spaces have experienced the same level of venom. I'm not surprised at the rage that some of us feel and express at attempts to close us down, stop us talking about our biology (it's apparently exclusionary to talk about our vaginas and breasts cos trans women didn't have that "privilege"at birth), to label us as 'cis', to call for a re-definition of woman, and to see meagre number of places reserved for women in political parties being shared with male-born and male-bodied people who identify as women. We're not gonna sit back and be nice and caring whilst the trans-agenda rides rough-shod over everything we ever fought for.

 

[colacubes]

This is a good read on gender neutral toilets - The Thing about Toilets
The comments are telling. When it comes to girls starting puberty I cringe to think of schools policies on the subject.

Also this Miscarriages in pub toilets. Is gender neutral ready? is a good read on a forgotten aspect.

I’ve had the worst of a miscarriage in a pub toilet. And in that moment of pain, agony and blood, I could not have given the slightest fuck about who was in that toilet. I also have endometriosis and bleed heavily every month and no longer care who sees it. All I care about is whether I can get to the basin to wash my hands.
And you can solve that by having sinks in toilet cubicles.

 

[Mation]

I think that’s true, and it’s pushing common sense to suggest that any significant threat would come from men ‘pretending’ to be women solely to gain access to abuse. I mean I’m sure it would happen, in the sense that given enough people at least a small number would be so damaged, but I’m not sure we should take it into account.

The thing that troubles me more is much more common or garden. And that’s simply that in a female space like a changing room where you’re temporarily naked, or in a toilet block, having a woman only space let’s you let your guard down a bit. Having people in there who are biologically male would feel threatening to me. Maybe that’s something that I could overcome, and in the future it’ll seem silly to of thought that. You just don’t know.

Yep, I totally get that it matters who is around when you're in a vulnerable state, as you are when changing. I recently complained at my gym when one of the women instructors came in to the changing room just after a class I'd been in to fiddle about with the lockers. I was naked, she was clothed. It felt weird as fuck to have someone who had just been teaching to just march in and see me naked, when she has the instructors changing rooms to change in. Total power imbalance. I'm bisexual and it wasn't about worry about any perceived sexual intent. I'd have been perfectly happy to change in front of her had the situation been equal. Similarly (but more so, cos men) I'd have been furious if a man had come into the room. But I imagine that women with male bodies would be sensitive to the idea that bodies evoke strong reactions in people, both in terms of other people's comfort as well as their own safety. I am totally at a loss to understand why anyone would think a change in the way people can correct their birth certificates would have any effect on how individuals behave in sensitive situations.

 

[MochaSoul]

I am totally at a loss to understand why anyone would think a change in the way people can correct their birth certificates would have any effect on how individuals behave in sensitive situations.

Except if that change means pretty much download a form, fill it, send it et voilá... you're the other sex, it means neither women nor transwomen would be safe. I'm a totally at a loss as to why someone who calls themselves my "sister" would be so blind to my safety in that way. I've seen Kris Harrison on twitter defending a wide consultation and asserting the need for third spaces in some circumstances to no avail.
It's almost as if the validation of male "feelings" has to come at any price including their own safety. That alone poses more questions.

 

[Sea Star]

I'm just gonna keep using the disabled toilets and being too scared to use the locker rooms or showers. And as for gyms/ pools - no chance ever again! It's fucking shit!

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm just gonna keep using the disabled toilets and being too scared to use the locker rooms or showers. And as for gyms/ pools - no chance ever again! It's fucking shit!

Disabled toilets were my way of respecting women's privacy when my son was not old enough to be left on his own outside but was old enough for me to think of the impact of his presence in a female toilet but I'm a woman who's had to wash her knickers in a public toilet sink when I was young so I'd think this way.

 

[spanglechick]

I'm not troubled with or objecting to anything in your sentence, I agree with what you said. My point was that the level of ''trans women are women" insistence has now got to the point that many trans activists would decide your sentence makes you a TERF. We're not allowed to say things like 'trans women will never fully be female' or that gender and sex are different. People like Lily Madigan say they've always been female and will just block anyone who disagrees.

Oh. Right. Well none of the trans people I know believe that biology doesn't exist, and the word "female" is purely biological.


Edited to try and correct quote weirdness.

 

[Athos]

Oh. Right. Well none of the trans people I know believe that biology doesn't exist, and the word "female" is purely biological.

Something's gone wrong with the quote function; it's attributing that comment to Vintage Paw, rather than weepiper (who was the one who wrote it).

 

[MochaSoul]

Oh. Right. Well none of the trans people I know believe that biology doesn't exist, and the word "female" is purely biological.

Not for trans who call themselves lesbians and call lesbians who reject them "vagina fetishists".


Here's Lynne Harne speaking on behalf of the Lesbian Rights Alliance

 

[spanglechick]

We all know sexual offenders will offend. Do you think the law should make it easier for them and aren't women well within their rights to point out the ways in which proposed laws may make their lives that much more difficult?

What practical change will the law change bring that will make male sex offenders more able to access vulnerable women?

Because it's going to have to be a situation that currently requires people to prove their femaleness by showing their birth certificate.

And I've only had to do that three times as an adult: to apply for a student loan; to apply for a passport; and to apply for a marriage licence. Not to access a female hospital ward; not to be granted access to children as a teacher; not to get into spas or changing rooms or loos.

The only thing that will change with this law is access to changed birth certificates.

I’ve had the worst of a miscarriage in a pub toilet. And in that moment of pain, agony and blood, I could not have given the slightest fuck about who was in that toilet. I also have endometriosis and bleed heavily every month and no longer care who sees it. All I care about is whether I can get to the basin to wash my hands.
And you can solve that by having sinks in toilet cubicles.

I am heartened by my sixth formers who are quite strident about talking about periods. "You do it, I'm bleeding", or "I need the loo because of that thing where you poo loads on your period".

This coy secrecy is both a symptom and a cause of one fractional part of patriarchal oppression. We should stop protecting men from the ugly realities of menstruation.

 

[spanglechick]

Not for trans who call themselves lesbians and call lesbians who reject them "vagina fetishists".


Here's Lynne Harne speaking on behalf of the Lesbian Rights Alliance

But I know several trans lesbians and none of them hold those views. A small handful of trans women don't speak for all, any more than that awful EDF woman Jayda Fransen gets to speak for me as a fellow British white woman with dodgy dyed hair.

 

[MochaSoul]

The only thing that will change with this law is access to changed birth certificates.

Which means they can then a la Madigan then claim to represent women in political parties. I hope we can see the Labour Party in court about it.

 

[spanglechick]

Which means they can then a la Madigan then claim to represent women in political parties. I hope we can see the Labour Party in court about it.

Madigan has done this before the law change. No one needed to see her birth certificate.

What will change after the law that will harm vulnerable or oppressed women who are currently safe because of the law being in its current form?

 

[MochaSoul]

But I know several trans lesbians and none of them hold those views. A small handful of trans women don't speak for all, any more than that awful EDF woman Jayda Fransen gets to speak for me as a fellow British white woman with dodgy dyed hair.

Watch Lynne Harne. Also pay attention to how the mainstream media is now relegating lesbianism to a sexual preference.

What’s Wrong With the ‘No Trans’ Dating Preference Debate

 

[MochaSoul]

Madigan has done this before the law change. No one needed to see her birth certificate.

What will change after the law that will harm vulnerable or oppressed women who are currently safe because of the law being in its current form?

Madigan has been allowed to do this because the Labour Party decided to stand "ahead of the law".

 

[Pickman's model]

But I know several trans lesbians and none of them hold those views. A small handful of trans women don't speak for all, any more than that awful EDF woman Jayda Fransen gets to speak for me as a fellow British white woman with dodgy dyed hair.

Jayda Fransen Britain First

Also think EDF do energy not fascism

 

[Shechemite]

Jayda Fransen Britain First

Also think EDF do energy not fascism

EDF are cunts tbf. She’d fit right in.

 

[MochaSoul]

The Left Are Abandoning Women; and in Doing So, Abandoning Everything They Stand For

 

[Sea Star]

Oh. Right. Well none of the trans people I know believe that biology doesn't exist, and the word "female" is purely biological.

Why is that quote attributed to Vintage Paw? I was mildly concerned for a second until I realised it's an error.

 

[Edie]

Yep, I totally get that it matters who is around when you're in a vulnerable state, as you are when changing. I recently complained at my gym when one of the women instructors came in to the changing room just after a class I'd been in to fiddle about with the lockers. I was naked, she was clothed. It felt weird as fuck to have someone who had just been teaching to just march in and see me naked, when she has the instructors changing rooms to change in. Total power imbalance. I'm bisexual and it wasn't about worry about any perceived sexual intent. I'd have been perfectly happy to change in front of her had the situation been equal. Similarly (but more so, cos men) I'd have been furious if a man had come into the room. But I imagine that women with male bodies would be sensitive to the idea that bodies evoke strong reactions in people, both in terms of other people's comfort as well as their own safety. I am totally at a loss to understand why anyone would think a change in the way people can correct their birth certificates would have any effect on how individuals behave in sensitive situations.

Yes I’m sure you’d be right about the sensitivity.

I was thinking about the loos as a place of refuge. You know when you’ve had some pissed bloke who won’t take a graceful end to a come on persuing you a bit much, and you duck into the bogs so he fucks off. And it’s nice to have that female space to stand by the sink and chat, have a breather etc. And I was thinking that a trans woman having access to the toilet mightn’t really effect that, but having *shared* unisex facilities would.

 

[MochaSoul]

EDF are cunts tbf. She’d fit right in.

I think the bit where they had more qualms about writing the whole of the twitter handle to include "idiots in" rather than the lying on a medical form has a je ne se quois about it.

Forgot this one: