A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[Sea Star]

What practical change will the law change bring that will make male sex offenders more able to access vulnerable women?

Because it's going to have to be a situation that currently requires people to prove their femaleness by showing their birth certificate.

And I've only had to do that three times as an adult: to apply for a student loan; to apply for a passport; and to apply for a marriage licence. Not to access a female hospital ward; not to be granted access to children as a teacher; not to get into spas or changing rooms or loos.

The only thing that will change with this law is access to changed birth certificates.






I am heartened by my sixth formers who are quite strident about talking about periods. "You do it, I'm bleeding", or "I need the loo because of that thing where you poo loads on your period".

This coy secrecy is both a symptom and a cause of one fractional part of patriarchal oppression. We should stop protecting men from the ugly realities of menstruation.

And trans women don't even need protecting. We're not squeamish men. We can deal with natural bodily functions for fucks sake. I had to a daughter who went through it. It didn't bother me in the least.

 

[Sea Star]

The fact that we say we're transgender women shows we are fully aware and acknowledge the biological differences. We just don't think it means we're not women, or not female.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Why is that quote attributed to Vintage Paw? I was mildly concerned for a second until I realised it's an error.

I've sent her a message asking to change it, but I don't think she's around at the moment. Hopefully everyone knows those are not my views!

 

[weepiper]

 

[MochaSoul]

Oh dear!

 

[MochaSoul]

"The genetic difference between a man and a woman is 15 times the genetic difference between two men or between two women."

 

[Sea Star]

This thread has really descended into the shit now


Time to bin?

 

[spanglechick]

Watch Lynne Harne. Also pay attention to how the mainstream media is now relegating lesbianism to a sexual preference.

What’s Wrong With the ‘No Trans’ Dating Preference Debate

I just said a small proportion of trans lesbians hold those views. Not sure of how your post refutes mine.

 

[spanglechick]

Jayda Fransen Britain First

Also think EDF do energy not fascism

Actual LOL.

 

[Eeepet]

TERF is a slur
I have just put TERF in as a search term (part of my efforts to understand the issues) and found this site. It's frightening and misogynistic.
This thread began with a post about a public event. I was surprised that it almost immediately turned in to an interrogation of the poster, questioning the integrity of the organisers, their right to organise, the cost of the tickets, the need for a secret venue, and challenging their right to cancel & refund tickets. Within a few posts the event had been called a 'hate rally'. I've looked at the videos of previous events and there's no evidence of hate. No threats, no suggestion of violence.
A comparison with the comments on the website suggests that the hatred is predominantly and powerfully in one direction.

 

[Pickman's model]

is there any information about when the consultation promised in parliament on 9 january might begin? - this would meet at least two of the demands mentioned in the op

 

[Edie]

TERF is a slur
I have just put TERF in as a search term (part of my efforts to understand the issues) and found this site. It's frightening and misogynistic.
This thread began with a post about a public event. I was surprised that it almost immediately turned in to an interrogation of the poster, questioning the integrity of the organisers, their right to organise, the cost of the tickets, the need for a secret venue, and challenging their right to cancel & refund tickets. Within a few posts the event had been called a 'hate rally'. I've looked at the videos of previous events and there's no evidence of hate. No threats, no suggestion of violence.
A comparison with the comments on the website suggests that the hatred is predominantly and powerfully in one direction.

Yes but that’s Twitter. I never go on there myself, it always seems to be a collection of the most extreme and nasty batshit statements that are totally detatached from reality. I’m sure you could find just as many in the opposite direction. I’m not sure it says much. Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Ranbay]

Fuck it's on till 9pm?

didn't think it would be that late, ah well more time with my lad

 

[Eeepet]

Yes but that’s Twitter. I never go on there myself, it always seems to be a collection of the most extreme and nasty batshit statements that are totally detatached from reality. I’m sure you could find just as many in the opposite direction. I’m not sure it says much. Maybe I’m wrong.

I genuinely hope you are right Edie. Decades ago and way before twitter I did a Women's Studies MSc. It included an enlightening course on sex and gender but also opened my (unwilling) eyes to the extent and depth of misogyny in society - enacted in laws, traditions, behaviour, social & cultural attitudes, history, literature, and everyday life. It was frightening.
I just hadn't expected to see these attitudes replicated within the trans community and their allies. It might be a very small number but the intensity of the hatred makes these voices sound very loud. I have looked for equivalences, and looked for sites where trans people challenge these extreme views but I can't find either.

 

[MochaSoul]

I genuinely hope you are right Edie. Decades ago and way before twitter I did a Women's Studies MSc. It included an enlightening course on sex and gender but also opened my (unwilling) eyes to the extent and depth of misogyny in society - enacted in laws, traditions, behaviour, social & cultural attitudes, history, literature, and everyday life. It was frightening.
I just hadn't expected to see these attitudes replicated within the trans community and their allies. It might be a very small number but the intensity of the hatred makes these voices sound very loud. I have looked for equivalences, and looked for sites where trans people challenge these extreme views but I can't find either.

A good article on the subject.

The term, “TERF,” is itself an intentional manipulation, intended to reframe feminist ideas and activism as “exclusionary,” rather than foundational to the women’s liberation movement. In other words, it is an attack on women-centered political organizing and the basic theory that underpins feminist analysis of patriarchy.

‘TERF’ isn’t just a slur, it’s hate speech

 

[Pickman's model]

yeh i particularly like the way it suggests everyone who uses the term is a nazi

oh, and

more famously associated with goebbels than hitler as per Joseph Goebbels On the "Big Lie"

calling people nazis designed to show things in a reasonable light i suppose.

 

[spanglechick]

TERF is a slur
I have just put TERF in as a search term (part of my efforts to understand the issues) and found this site. It's frightening and misogynistic.
This thread began with a post about a public event. I was surprised that it almost immediately turned in to an interrogation of the poster, questioning the integrity of the organisers, their right to organise, the cost of the tickets, the need for a secret venue, and challenging their right to cancel & refund tickets. Within a few posts the event had been called a 'hate rally'. I've looked at the videos of previous events and there's no evidence of hate. No threats, no suggestion of violence.
A comparison with the comments on the website suggests that the hatred is predominantly and powerfully in one direction.

There clearly is some horrible behaviour from extremist trans activists. Those who propose violence against biologically exclusive female activists, for example.

And although an analysis of twitter would show some highly revolting and hateful people on the other side, I dare say a lot of the most empassioned extremism is from the trans inclusive side.

I'd suggest though, two things: (a) trans people are fighting for their very existence to be acknowledged. They are a small minority and are subject to attack, assault, murder, humiliation and ridicule in even greater proportion than natal women. Those under oppression and fear because of a continual background of violence against them are likely to lash out with acts of violence. Look at the ANC planting bombs under apartheid, or the PLO.
I think that's also why it is trans-cautionary or anti-trans women's voices are louder than men's. Because it would be erroneous to think that natal men are on the whole trans-inclusionary.

Secondly, I think misogyny as a word is fraught here. It's my personal nuance ultimately, but I think misogyny implies that the aggressive factor is masculinity rather than patriarchy. And by masculinity I mean the expression of male gender roles. I don't the know that's what extremist trans activism always is, but in the lesbian rape threats it's hard to see it as other than internalised misogyny. But I'd be very wary of calling every aggression towards women misogynistic. Especially given that some anti trans bigots (who obviously do exist), are keen to rush to call trans women "men" at every opportunity.

 

[Voley]

Twitter ... the most extreme and nasty batshit statements that are totally detatached from reality.

I am on Twitter.

 

[Pickman's model]

There clearly is some horrible behaviour from extremist trans activists. Those who propose violence against biologically exclusive female activists, for example.

And although an analysis of twitter would show some highly revolting and hateful people on the other side, I dare say a lot of the most empassioned extremism is from the trans inclusive side.

I'd suggest though, two things: (a) trans people are fighting for their very existence to be acknowledged. They are a small minority and are subject to attack, assault, murder, humiliation and ridicule in even greater proportion than natal women. Those under oppression and fear because of a continual background of violence against them are likely to lash out with acts of violence. Look at the ANC planting bombs under apartheid, or the PLO.
I think that's also why it is trans-cautionary or anti-trans women's voices are louder than men's. Because it would be erroneous to think that natal men are on the whole trans-inclusionary.

Secondly, I think misogyny as a word is fraught here. It's my personal nuance ultimately, but I think misogyny implies that the aggressive factor is masculinity rather than patriarchy. And by masculinity I mean the expression of male gender roles. I don't the know that's what extremist trans activism always is, but in the lesbian rape threats it's hard to see it as other than internalised misogyny. But I'd be very wary of calling every aggression towards women misogynistic. Especially given that some anti trans bigots (who obviously do exist), are keen to rush to call trans women "men" at every opportunity.

To be fair the anc and plo suffered great, frequent and indeed often fatal violence for many years from two of the more repressive regimes of the last century.

 

[Edie]

I am on Twitter.

What do you aim your 40 characters of tweet hatred towards Voley

 

[Voley]

What do you aim your 40 characters of tweet hatred towards Voley

The enemies of Penzance Football Club.

 

[Edie]

The enemies of Penzance Football Club.

 

[Poot]

The enemies of Penzance Football Club.

 

[ddraig]

Later on in evening Cardiff LGBT Social Network and Cardiff Trans Singershave organised "The Fantastic Woman Festival" to counter the TERFs hate, and to put a stop to their narrative of "feminism vs trans". they are going to celebrate the wonderful power intersectionality and diversity have in our movement.

Now more than ever, ensuring that minority voices are heard and respected.

Our Feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.

 

[spanglechick]

To be fair the anc and plo suffered great, frequent and indeed often fatal violence for many years from two of the more repressive regimes of the last century.

Which is why I chose those examples. (Albeit that the level of violence is significantly more severe. But then, so is the level of retaliation). Hate crime against trans people is horrifyingly common.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which is why I chose those examples. (Albeit that the level of violence is significantly more severe. But then, so is the level of retaliation). Hate crime against trans people is horrifyingly common.

TBH if your point is violence against a minority then the south african one is the other way round.

not to mention that the plo founded in 1964, some years after the expulsion of most palestinians from the zionist entity

 

[spanglechick]

TBH if your point is violence against a minority then the south african one is the other way round.

not to mention that the plo founded in 1964, some years after the expulsion of most palestinians from the zionist entity

It wasn't about minorities otherwise I'd have said so.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd suggest though, two things: (a) trans people are fighting for their very existence to be acknowledged. They are a small minority and are subject to attack, assault, murder, humiliation and ridicule in even greater proportion than natal women. Those under oppression and fear because of a continual background of violence against them are likely to lash out with acts of violence. Look at the ANC planting bombs under apartheid, or the PLO.
I think that's also why it is trans-cautionary or anti-trans women's voices are louder than men's. Because it would be erroneous to think that natal men are on the whole trans-inclusionary.

yeh cos obvs you don't mention anything about minorities. and as you're suggesting TWO things, that suggests your a) is ONE thing. but i don't see this as something worth continuing with, unless you'd like to.

 

[shygirl]

"The hate campaigns are coming to Wales threatening to create a more hostile and abusive environment for trans people. Join other members of our communities in Wales and stand up to show support for the trans community and stop the spread of hate into Wales."

What a fucking lie, 'hate campaigns'. This is the dirty, nasty side of trans-activism. THIS is why the meetings are being held in secret, because we are being horribly misrepresented as bigots and haters and the potential consequences of that shit, are scary. Just ask Helen Steel or the woman who was punched in Hyde Park Corner.

As you've chosen to share this flier ddraig, do you honestly believe that Woman's Place UK and the people who plan to attend the meeting are spreading hate in wanting to question the impact of potential changes to the GRA on girls and women?

 

[shygirl]

There clearly is some horrible behaviour from extremist trans activists. Those who propose violence against biologically exclusive female activists, for example.

And although an analysis of twitter would show some highly revolting and hateful people on the other side, I dare say a lot of the most empassioned extremism is from the trans inclusive side.

I'd suggest though, two things: (a) trans people are fighting for their very existence to be acknowledged. They are a small minority and are subject to attack, assault, murder, humiliation and ridicule in even greater proportion than natal women. Those under oppression and fear because of a continual background of violence against them are likely to lash out with acts of violence. Look at the ANC planting bombs under apartheid, or the PLO.
I think that's also why it is trans-cautionary or anti-trans women's voices are louder than men's. Because it would be erroneous to think that natal men are on the whole trans-inclusionary.

Secondly, I think misogyny as a word is fraught here. It's my personal nuance ultimately, but I think misogyny implies that the aggressive factor is masculinity rather than patriarchy. And by masculinity I mean the expression of male gender roles. I don't the know that's what extremist trans activism always is, but in the lesbian rape threats it's hard to see it as other than internalised misogyny. But I'd be very wary of calling every aggression towards women misogynistic. Especially given that some anti trans bigots (who obviously do exist), are keen to rush to call trans women "men" at every opportunity.

Evidence for TW being at greater risk than women please. When did you last hear of a TW being murdered in the UK? THREE women a week have been murdered in the UK since the start of the year.