A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[MochaSoul]

DP

 

[Shechemite]

Aww, I'm flattered Sea Star



.

Fucks sake Sea Star

 

[Sea Star]

Fucks sake Sea Star

i don't even know what you're saying fucks sake at.

 

[Athos]

dammit, Athos. I want to stick to the point at hand and not muddy the water with what ifs and having to discuss the mythical trans lobby, wherever they are.

But, OK - I would ask them to leave myself because as a woman, I would not be happy with people who present as men entering a female toilet or any female only space. And if I was asked to leave I would probably leave myself because i hate confrontation. Now please, can we stick to the subject at hand?

So you wouldn't respect that they were a woman based on their account of their self-identity? But, isn't this exactly what you want others to do? What the whole move towards legal recognition of self-identification is all about? I can't see how you can hold this view and fail to empathise with cis women who feel essentially the same!?

 

[Shechemite]

i don't even know what you're saying fucks sake at.

What’s your point?

 

[spanglechick]

The moment you are born people separate you because you are a human female... meaning you have a vagina.

The sexism that affects men and which includes "men don't cry" and similarly alienating and ultimately harmful ideas is a product of gender.

Gender is a social police mechanism of the sexes. That it is now being equated to sex is what lays at the heart of this question.

And that socialisation does vary. But yes, lots of gender indoctrination happens before trans people transition. Lots of it happens after, too. And the way I am treated on the street and by the media is also inflicted upon trans women. Trans women are also victims of domestic violence, of male sexual violence and of assault and harassment. There are a great many experiences of misogyny that apply to transwomen, and from a feminist perspective I see strength in trans women and natal women organising together on those issues.

Conversely, on issues related to maternity care, I don't see any need for trans women to participate in sharing experiences... but, as an infertile woman, not do I.

 

[Sea Star]

What’s your point?

what's your point? You started this.

 

[Edie]

This is a difficult subject isn’t it.

On the one hand you obviously want to support people who feel uncomfortable in their own skin and want to live as the opposite gender. You don’t want to make their lives any more shit or difficult, and their persecution is miserable. And on that level it’s none of mine or anyone else’s business what they call themselves, how they dress, whether they take hormones or have surgery to feel more at peace. Good luck to them.

On the other hand, when it comes to trans women asserting their ‘rights’ (wrong word?) to be in female places like toilets or changing rooms or prisons or refuges, or even in women’s positions like as elected officers, then that raises questions about whether women feel comfortable with that. And not all do.

I feel like these spaces exist to try and help mitigate the disadvantages of being a woman. To try to help make us safer, and yes that means from men. The same concerns aren’t as great the other way round, women are more at risk from men. So of course it’s alarming and will be challenged if men who now identify as women can now use that space. It raises all sorts of questions.

I don’t know what’s to be done about it, but non gendered toilet cubicles and changing cubicles are an obvious start. I’d also suggest that trans women not rushing to be elected as women’s officers (Lily M) would be wise. And in the other direction, just accepting that some people have a very complicated relationship with gender and trying to make the world a bit easier and less judgemental for them seems a good idea.

 

[spanglechick]

This logic only works if being a woman in the natal sense is fundamentally the preserve of white cis women.

That wasn't my logic. I was highlighting the attitude that people in the majority don't see the need to describe themselves to the same extent as those in the minority. My mum has a similar objection to describing herself as straight. She is "normal" and therefore shouldn't have a label.

 

[MochaSoul]

And that socialisation does vary. But yes, lots of gender indoctrination happens before trans people transition. Lots of it happens after, too. And the way I am treated on the street and by the media is also inflicted upon trans women. Trans women are also victims of domestic violence, of male sexual violence and of assault and harassment. There are a great many experiences of misogyny that apply to transwomen, and from a feminist perspective I see strength in trans women and natal women organising together on those issues.

Conversely, on issues related to maternity care, I don't see any need for trans women to participate in sharing experiences... but, as an infertile woman, not do I.

Socialisation is key. What do you think of this in regard of the socialisation of young girls?

Thread by @helensaxby11: "Allsorts have now jumped on the bandwagon of criticising the @Transgendertrd school resource pack with no evidence to back up their claims S […]"

 

[spanglechick]

Because women have no way to distinguish between transexuals and all manner of fetishists from the voyeur to the flasher who we know to be creative in their pursuits. The explosion of porn online is giving them more and more ideas. It's particularly worrying that people like Eddie Izzard go on mainstream media to describe groups of young girls in female toiltes as "terrifying" for grown men like him. It encourages young girls in particular to let their guard down when we know from what happened with the rugby players that women may well have to face the fact of their vaginas giving them a second class status in the "who to believe" stakes when they report sexual offenses.

Groups of young girls are sometimes terrifying. And more so to those who were never teenaged girls themselves.

That's something positive about girlhood. It's fierce and spiky and loud. Girls should own that power.

Teaching teenage girls that they are never terrifying, and that no matter how many of them are present, a man is always more powerful, is a really, really unhelpful thing.

 

[B.I.G]

Some women don't feel comfortable around women that find them attractive.

Prejudice is prejudice, however you pretend its about safe spaces.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Some women don't feel comfortable around women that find them attractive.

Prejudice is prejudice, however you pretend its about safe spaces.

It sounds awfully like arguments that gay men shouldn't be allowed in spaces with young boys. Just in case.

 

[spanglechick]

Socialisation is key. What do you think of this in regard of the socialisation of young girls?

Thread by @helensaxby11: "Allsorts have now jumped on the bandwagon of criticising the @Transgendertrd school resource pack with no evidence to back up their claims S […]"

I tried to read that, but the writer's agenda was so transparent I gave up on trying to sieve the neutral facts from it.

However, I am a teacher and we have a trans boy at our school. His mother (both deeply religious and a chaotic alcoholic) is not aware, and thinks the lad is a gender-non-conforming lesbian (which she struggles with enough). The school's role has been to provide a listening ear, and to smooth over any potential issues (his ID card now has his first initial rather than his female name; and he has been given access to the disabled loos - at his request and in preference to the boys'). And that's it. As a school our duty is to support the child. We don't prescribe meds or change existing legal documents. Nothing that happens at school is irreversible, and when he applies to uni or whatever, he'll put down his gender as male, as is his right.

 

[Edie]

And btw shygirl I would of liked to go to an event like that if it’d been in the north, although I agree that it may have been better if trans women were represented by speaker(s).

Somehow this debate needs to become less confrontational, because it seems to have scared people on both sides and a compromise needs to be reached.

 

[kabbes]

what's your point? You started this.

If you have mochasoul on ignore, it might help you to show ignored content.

 

[MochaSoul]

I tried to read that, but the writer's agenda was so transparent I gave up on trying to sieve the neutral facts from it.

However, I am a teacher and we have a trans boy at our school. His mother (both deeply religious and a chaotic alcoholic) is not aware, and thinks the lad is a gender-non-conforming lesbian (which she struggles with enough). The school's role has been to provide a listening ear, and to smooth over any potential issues (his ID card now has his first initial rather than his female name; and he has been given access to the disabled loos - at his request and in preference to the boys'). And that's it. As a school our duty is to support the child. We don't prescribe meds or change existing legal documents. Nothing that happens at school is irreversible, and when he applies to uni or whatever, he'll put down his gender as male, as is his right.

Since when has it become acceptable (or even desirable) to change the individual to fit the crafted structure rather than to change the system?
Are we really so few to think that children should be given the support to navigate the inequalities of the world, rather than changing themselves to "blend in"?

Do you not see the danger of such unquestioning affirmation in, say, a young girl who is the victim of sexual abuse and goes on to regard their abused body and the source of their vulnerability with hatred but doesn't have it herself to report the abuse?

As per, the girl who may feel uncomfortable with the presence of a boy in their changing rooms? Do you not think that it's a dangerous message to give them that the feelings" of boys have primacy of place over their own and therefore the girls themselves should be moved onto other activities? The screenshots of the "guidance" are pretty clear to everyone regardless of the "agenda" of the messenger.

 

[Mation]

Because women have no way to distinguish between transexuals and all manner of fetishists from the voyeur to the flasher who we know to be creative in their pursuits. The explosion of porn online is giving them more and more ideas. It's particularly worrying that people like Eddie Izzard go on mainstream media to describe groups of young girls in female toiltes as "terrifying" for grown men like him. It encourages young girls in particular to let their guard down when we know from what happened with the rugby players that women may well have to face the fact of their vaginas giving them a second class status in the "who to believe" stakes when they report sexual offenses.

I keep re-reading this and trying to understand what you mean but it's just not making any sense.

Do you genuinely believe that 'all manner of fetishists from the voyeur to the flasher', fuelled by ideas gleaned from porn, are currently holding off entering women's spaces, waiting for the moment when they can change their birth certificate more easily, and then they'll be right in there, perving over those of us with vaginas?

 

[MochaSoul]

And btw shygirl I would of liked to go to an event like that if it’d been in the north, although I agree that it may have been better if trans women were represented by speaker(s).

Somehow this debate needs to become less confrontational, because it seems to have scared people on both sides and a compromise needs to be reached.

A Woman's Place is Standing Her Ground

There are more on the pipeline. Contact a Woman's Place and suggest a meeting near you. Chances are they are already working on it and will be glad to hear from you.

 

[MochaSoul]

I keep re-reading this and trying to understand what you mean but it's just not making any sense.

Do you genuinely believe that 'all manner of fetishists from the voyeur to the flasher', fuelled by ideas gleaned from porn, are currently holding off entering women's spaces, waiting for the moment when they can change their birth certificate more easily, and then they'll be right in there, perving over those of us with vaginas?

Hmm... Imagine some perverts going so far as becoming gynecologists.

“Patwardhan is a highly manipulative individual, having used his position of trust and authority to prey on the victims under his medical care believing that they would be too embarrassed to report such offences to police.
“Thankfully he was mistaken and I commend the victims for their courage in speaking out despite the sensitivity surrounding their personal medical concerns.

Former gynaecologist guilty of sex assaults on patients

 

[weepiper]

Really struggling here.

I'm assuming that you're not troubled by my saying that regardless of medical treatment, trans people cannot fully biologically become the opposite sex.

So I'm left with you objecting to my saying that gender is different to biological sex, and that this is somehow bigoted. Which is more extreme than anything I've come across before so I'm going to need some help understanding why.

I'm not troubled with or objecting to anything in your sentence, I agree with what you said. My point was that the level of ''trans women are women" insistence has now got to the point that many trans activists would decide your sentence makes you a TERF. We're not allowed to say things like 'trans women will never fully be female' or that gender and sex are different. People like Lily Madigan say they've always been female and will just block anyone who disagrees.

 

[B.I.G]

Hmm... Imagine some perverts going so far as becoming gynecologists.


Former gynaecologist guilty of sex assaults on patients

Idiot.

 

[weepiper]

Edie really pleased to see you posting again

 

[Mation]

Hmm... Imagine some perverts going so far as becoming gynecologists.


Former gynaecologist guilty of sex assaults on patients

What on earth has this got to do with trans people?

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm not troubled with or objecting to anything in your sentence, I agree with what you said. My point was that the level of ''trans women are women" insistence has now got to the point that many trans activists would decide your sentence makes you a TERF. We're not allowed to say things like 'trans women will never fully be female' or that gender and sex are different. People like Lily Madigan say they've always been female and will just block anyone who disagrees.

Egged on by trans-hacked brains such as Peter Tatchell's who doesn't even bother to read articles before tweeting this kind of life endangering lunacy:

 

[Mation]

I'm not troubled with or objecting to anything in your sentence, I agree with what you said. My point was that the level of ''trans women are women" insistence has now got to the point that many trans activists would decide your sentence makes you a TERF. We're not allowed to say things like 'trans women will never fully be female' or that gender and sex are different. People like Lily Madigan say they've always been female and will just block anyone who disagrees.

What are the necessary conditions for being fully female, in your opinion?

 

[MochaSoul]

What on earth has this got to do with trans people?

How many times is it necessary to say it's nothing to do with trans and all to do with men and women's difficulties in a world dominated by them?

Doesn't that example give you a pretty good idea of the lengths a sexual ofender will go to given the tools to feed their sexual wants? If that guy had decided to id as a woman do you really feel that the bigotry charge on top of the women's abuse trauma is acceptable?

 

[weepiper]

What are the necessary conditions for being fully female, in your opinion?

Why aren't you asking spanglechick that? I was quoting her.

 

[Mation]

Egged on by trans-hacked brains such as Peter Tatchell's who doesn't even bother to read articles before tweeting this kind of life endangering lunacy:

'trans-hacked brains'.

You're just a bigot, then.

 

[Mation]

Why aren't you asking spanglechick that? I was quoting her.

You said "we're not allowed to say..." so I was assuming you have an opinion on it.