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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Does the UK have plans for custom checks on the Eire/Northern Ireland border? No. The EU would to protect their rather backward-thinking protectionist market.

One thing I agree on with you is if push comes to shove the EU should cut off every single contact with the UK.
If push comes to shove, stop supplying electricity, ban UK travel in their airspace, don’t try to stop the people smugglers if the destination is the UK, do not use English as one of their principle working languages and much more.
If push comes to shove mind, and you have your way. You want conflict, well why not have a huge dose of sustained hostility?
I will be a fifth columnist.
 
Oh and there was that orangey type from a few weeks ago, another rarity around here. But IIRC orangey types are a major Leave constituency, still throwing their weight around and fucking shit up for Brexit. These people might be few and far between here but 'out there', far from it.
 
Blimey all this wounded nonsense because Mojo pixie had the audacity to point out many leave voters did vote leave for right-wing reasons. and that constituency hasn’t been very represented here.

It's actually more amusement at the notion that to be a real leave supporter you have to be either on the right or a swivel eyed Rees-Mogg/Farage type bam.

Not only is this strikingly ahistorical given that up until the 1990's the left in Britian was firmly leave but, of course, Planet Remain rejects any suggestion that their own politics have any resemblance to the clowns, ghouls and right wing cranks who led the official Remain campaign.
 
It's actually more amusement at the notion that to be a real leave supporter you have to be either on the right or a swivel eyed Rees-Mogg/Farage type bam.

Not only is this strikingly ahistorical given that up until the 1990's the left in Britian was firmly leave but, of course, Planet Remain rejects any suggestion that their own politics have any resemblance to the clowns, ghouls and right wing cranks who led the official Remain campaign.
There we can agree; both sides were driven with campaigning led by
clowns, ghouls and right wing cranks
Makes me continue to marvel that anyone from the left would feel motivated to choose a side.
 
OK...let's look at it the other way around.

If the EU had expelled all of our citizens in the EU, would you have blamed the EU? Would you be claiming that they are heartless etc?

If the EU is so bloody great and humanitarian, they would have recipricated the UK's good will gesture. But they didn't, they said the rights of UK citizens in the EU would be chucked into the negotiations.

Why on Earth would or should we be in a political union with them, if they are morally inferior?
"We"?
 
One thing I agree on with you is if push comes to shove the EU should cut off every single contact with the UK.
If push comes to shove, stop supplying electricity, ban UK travel in their airspace, don’t try to stop the people smugglers if the destination is the UK, do not use English as one of their principle working languages and much more.
If push comes to shove mind, and you have your way. You want conflict, well why not have a huge dose of sustained hostility?
I will be a fifth columnist.
You never cease to amaze me in that you become more frothing with time.
 
Does the UK have plans for custom checks on the Eire/Northern Ireland border? No. The EU would to protect their rather backward-thinking protectionist market.
As we've seen numerous times over the past seven years, or even the past twenty, the UK government often makes no plans despite something being eminently predictable - see, for example, Iraq after the defeat of saddam hussein.
 
One thing I agree on with you is if push comes to shove the EU should cut off every single contact with the UK.
If push comes to shove, stop supplying electricity, ban UK travel in their airspace, don’t try to stop the people smugglers if the destination is the UK, do not use English as one of their principle working languages and much more.
If push comes to shove mind, and you have your way. You want conflict, well why not have a huge dose of sustained hostility?
I will be a fifth columnist.
What planet are you on? It may be disappointing but the EU isn’t on a war footing with the U.K.
 
Or post 779 times on the thread dedicated to discussing it :D

This thread’s not a discussion. It’s just a shit fight. It’s the same as the meat threads where people just post a few Twitter things that nobody else reads then calls someone else names. As a discussion of Brexit, it’s utterly valueless, but as a behavioural study it’s unparalleled.

What stands out most is that the remainers are generally the less intelligent posters, and far more prone to bouts of opprobrium than the far more measured and thoughtful leavers.

If there was another referendum, I’d switch to the leave side because they’re better quality people.
 
What's been fascinating is the way that a false dichotomy, a spurious polarisation, into Leavers and Remainers is still going on 7 years after the vote. Rather than reject that model, people are continuing to see themselves and others in terms of it, to the extent that some people are even travelling from one identity to the other.

We didn't in fact have a debate on the merits or otherwise of the EU. What we actually had were a number of overlapping proxy debates.

Look at the two campaigns. Leave led by Farage and Johnson. Remain by Cameron and the CBI. This was not a choice that was in any way what it was sold as; then or now.

We had a war between the neoliberal and neoconservative tendencies in the Tory party (and in the ruling elite). These tendencies do not map simply into two factions, but are carried by degree in each and every Tory, and now also in the Labour leadership. That was a race I had no horse in. And it isn't over.

We had a moral panic on immigration. The Labour leadership has also bought into that, and on the wrong side. This debate was complicated by the neoliberal side of Cameron and the CBI, far from being concerned about rights for workers, they were motivated by factor mobility and labour arbitrage.

We were asked by some to vote in favour of remaining in the EU on the basis of a description of the EU that really doesn't match the reality. It is not the great protector of migrants, it is not the champion of the workers, nor is it even a bulwark against the far right, as just a glance at the far right in EU countries will show you. For me to be actively in favour of the EU would require a level of cognitive dissonance I don't think I could maintain.

I think it's worth saying that the project that some people think they signed up to - a Europe of cooperation, of solidarity, of mutual aid, of democratic institutions we can all be part of, etc - is a good and worthwhile project. It's just that the EU has demonstrated that it isn't it.

I've always favoured a closely linked Europe of solidarity between peoples.

The EU has shown, in its treatment of Greece, that it is not the institution to deliver that. It is instead a bankers', bureaucrats' and technocrats' tyranny that can overturn the democratically expressed wishes of any member state it feels deserves to be humiliated for daring to question the austerity consensus. In or out we get austerity, and "remain" austerity has demonstrated it's no friendly affair.

The EU has shown, in its treatment of migrants, that it is not the welcoming place it paints itself. The razor wire, the grubby deals to deport Syrian refugees from Greece, the German and Danish border controls, the Calais "jungle". That is all happening within the EU.

The EU is a neoliberal project. The Lisbon Treaty of 2007, which we were led into by Gordon Brown, is a codification of neoliberal principles. Far from being about protecting workers' rights, it is about protecting the interests of the business elites. It is a prospectus for privatisation and deregulation, for eroding public health services and free education, and for decimating pension provision.

None of that looks like evidence of solidarity between peoples to me.

I did not feel engaged with the EU referendum. Neither side seemed worthy of my energy. When I voted Remain, it was with no enthusiasm, and it was a last-minute decision. In the end, it was a reaction against the xenophobic tenor of the Leave campaign, specifically and particularly the queue poster. It was a visceral reaction. And certainly no identity stance. I was no heart-and-soul Remainer: I cannot bring myself to feel any love for the institutions of the EU.

In or out we are ruled by the same ideology. Call it Labour or Tory. In or out the neoconservative versus neoliberal power struggle would still play out. Leave was not a victory for being out of the EU alone and in itself. It did not happen in a vacuum. It happened along with a tip in the balance towards neoconservativism. But don't for a moment imagine that a win for Remain would have spared us that. Because actually it wasn't about leaving the EU anyway. As a simple glance at the details of the campaign itself should have informed you.
 
What's been fascinating is the way that a false dichotomy, a spurious polarisation, into Leavers and Remainers is still going on 7 years after the vote. Rather than reject that model, people are continuing to see themselves and others in terms of it, to the extent that some people are even travelling from one identity to the other.

We didn't in fact have a debate on the merits or otherwise of the EU. What we actually had were a number of overlapping proxy debates.

Look at the two campaigns. Leave led by Farage and Johnson. Remain by Cameron and the CBI. This was not a choice that was in any way what it was sold as; then or now.

We had a war between the neoliberal and neoconservative tendencies in the Tory party (and in the ruling elite). These tendencies do not map simply into two factions, but are carried by degree in each and every Tory, and now also in the Labour leadership. That was a race I had no horse in. And it isn't over.

We had a moral panic on immigration. The Labour leadership has also bought into that, and on the wrong side. This debate was complicated by the neoliberal side of Cameron and the CBI, far from being concerned about rights for workers, they were motivated by factor mobility and labour arbitrage.

We were asked by some to vote in favour of remaining in the EU on the basis of a description of the EU that really doesn't match the reality. It is not the great protector of migrants, it is not the champion of the workers, nor is it even a bulwark against the far right, as just a glance at the far right in EU countries will show you. For me to be actively in favour of the EU would require a level of cognitive dissonance I don't think I could maintain.

I think it's worth saying that the project that some people think they signed up to - a Europe of cooperation, of solidarity, of mutual aid, of democratic institutions we can all be part of, etc - is a good and worthwhile project. It's just that the EU has demonstrated that it isn't it.

I've always favoured a closely linked Europe of solidarity between peoples.

The EU has shown, in its treatment of Greece, that it is not the institution to deliver that. It is instead a bankers', bureaucrats' and technocrats' tyranny that can overturn the democratically expressed wishes of any member state it feels deserves to be humiliated for daring to question the austerity consensus. In or out we get austerity, and "remain" austerity has demonstrated it's no friendly affair.

The EU has shown, in its treatment of migrants, that it is not the welcoming place it paints itself. The razor wire, the grubby deals to deport Syrian refugees from Greece, the German and Danish border controls, the Calais "jungle". That is all happening within the EU.

The EU is a neoliberal project. The Lisbon Treaty of 2007, which we were led into by Gordon Brown, is a codification of neoliberal principles. Far from being about protecting workers' rights, it is about protecting the interests of the business elites. It is a prospectus for privatisation and deregulation, for eroding public health services and free education, and for decimating pension provision.

None of that looks like evidence of solidarity between peoples to me.

I did not feel engaged with the EU referendum. Neither side seemed worthy of my energy. When I voted Remain, it was with no enthusiasm, and it was a last-minute decision. In the end, it was a reaction against the xenophobic tenor of the Leave campaign, specifically and particularly the queue poster. It was a visceral reaction. And certainly no identity stance. I was no heart-and-soul Remainer: I cannot bring myself to feel any love for the institutions of the EU.

In or out we are ruled by the same ideology. Call it Labour or Tory. In or out the neoconservative versus neoliberal power struggle would still play out. Leave was not a victory for being out of the EU alone and in itself. It did not happen in a vacuum. It happened along with a tip in the balance towards neoconservativism. But don't for a moment imagine that a win for Remain would have spared us that. Because actually it wasn't about leaving the EU anyway. As a simple glance at the details of the campaign itself should have informed you.
to be honest between this and the way the conservatives introduced the issue of trans-gender identity in 2017 they have played a blinder, an absolute blinder, in dividing groups on the left
 
We were asked by some to vote in favour of remaining in the EU on the basis of a description of the EU that really doesn't match the reality. It is not the great protector of migrants, it is not the champion of the workers, nor is it even a bulwark against the far right, as just a glance at the far right in EU countries will show you. For me to be actively in favour of the EU would require a level of cognitive dissonance I don't think I could maintain.

Absolutely. I, like many, was right on the cusp before the referendum but decided on remain while actually in the queue to vote, based simply on the fact that the status quo would be easier (and I didn't want to vote with Farage). Everything you mention is completely valid and forms the basis of the answer to the moronic "give me one benefit of Brexit". Most remaniacs are arguing for an EU that exists only in their minds. The main benefit of leaving is not being part of that political system, so it's a political position rather than a tangible one, and let's face it, most remainers are only really moaning about minor selfish inconveniences like different airport queues, the gross inconvenience and expense of having to pay £6 every 3 years for ETIAS permits, and pop bands needing visas.
 
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What's been fascinating is the way that a false dichotomy, a spurious polarisation, into Leavers and Remainers is still going on 7 years after the vote. Rather than reject that model, people are continuing to see themselves and others in terms of it, to the extent that some people are even travelling from one identity to the other.

We didn't in fact have a debate on the merits or otherwise of the EU. What we actually had were a number of overlapping proxy debates.

Look at the two campaigns. Leave led by Farage and Johnson. Remain by Cameron and the CBI. This was not a choice that was in any way what it was sold as; then or now.

We had a war between the neoliberal and neoconservative tendencies in the Tory party (and in the ruling elite). These tendencies do not map simply into two factions, but are carried by degree in each and every Tory, and now also in the Labour leadership. That was a race I had no horse in. And it isn't over.

We had a moral panic on immigration. The Labour leadership has also bought into that, and on the wrong side. This debate was complicated by the neoliberal side of Cameron and the CBI, far from being concerned about rights for workers, they were motivated by factor mobility and labour arbitrage.

We were asked by some to vote in favour of remaining in the EU on the basis of a description of the EU that really doesn't match the reality. It is not the great protector of migrants, it is not the champion of the workers, nor is it even a bulwark against the far right, as just a glance at the far right in EU countries will show you. For me to be actively in favour of the EU would require a level of cognitive dissonance I don't think I could maintain.

I think it's worth saying that the project that some people think they signed up to - a Europe of cooperation, of solidarity, of mutual aid, of democratic institutions we can all be part of, etc - is a good and worthwhile project. It's just that the EU has demonstrated that it isn't it.

I've always favoured a closely linked Europe of solidarity between peoples.

The EU has shown, in its treatment of Greece, that it is not the institution to deliver that. It is instead a bankers', bureaucrats' and technocrats' tyranny that can overturn the democratically expressed wishes of any member state it feels deserves to be humiliated for daring to question the austerity consensus. In or out we get austerity, and "remain" austerity has demonstrated it's no friendly affair.

The EU has shown, in its treatment of migrants, that it is not the welcoming place it paints itself. The razor wire, the grubby deals to deport Syrian refugees from Greece, the German and Danish border controls, the Calais "jungle". That is all happening within the EU.

The EU is a neoliberal project. The Lisbon Treaty of 2007, which we were led into by Gordon Brown, is a codification of neoliberal principles. Far from being about protecting workers' rights, it is about protecting the interests of the business elites. It is a prospectus for privatisation and deregulation, for eroding public health services and free education, and for decimating pension provision.

None of that looks like evidence of solidarity between peoples to me.

I did not feel engaged with the EU referendum. Neither side seemed worthy of my energy. When I voted Remain, it was with no enthusiasm, and it was a last-minute decision. In the end, it was a reaction against the xenophobic tenor of the Leave campaign, specifically and particularly the queue poster. It was a visceral reaction. And certainly no identity stance. I was no heart-and-soul Remainer: I cannot bring myself to feel any love for the institutions of the EU.

In or out we are ruled by the same ideology. Call it Labour or Tory. In or out the neoconservative versus neoliberal power struggle would still play out. Leave was not a victory for being out of the EU alone and in itself. It did not happen in a vacuum. It happened along with a tip in the balance towards neoconservativism. But don't for a moment imagine that a win for Remain would have spared us that. Because actually it wasn't about leaving the EU anyway. As a simple glance at the details of the campaign itself should have informed you.
Thank you for this post. My stance is similar. It's fucking horrible to see people still bitterly divided over this while the ruling classes cheerfully take us all for mugs.
 
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