A thank you to Brexiteers.

[ska invita]

For many Brexit has been a cathartic experience for English identity

There is a credible case to say that 'English Independence' sentiment, as there is Scottish and Welsh and Irish independence sentiment, contributed significantly to the spirit of the vote (Scotland and Ireland majority voted remain), and English traditional tropes were wheeled out to stir that sentiment.

At its best it was a healthy expression of localist democratic rights - sovereignty - at its worst it was open xenophobia - shouting We Voted Leave Now Leave at people at bus stops.

Theres a lot been said already about English identity recently, and how it doesn't get to express itself coherently, mainly because England dominates the Union. The Union isn't really a union at all, its English dominance over the other three. Independence sentiment is based on repression, so hard to feel that within the union. Within the EU on the other hand...

On a symbolic cultural level Brexit put English (not Scottish, not Welsh, not Irish) cultural signifiers up against the Other of 'Europe' and won. So the feeling that English things are more English now is not surprising.


Order is restored, England runs Britain again, subservient to no one, in parliamentary politics democratic choice has been narrowed again, the establishment firmly in the driving seat, feels familiar and traditional

 

[bimble]

Aside from the identity stuff, it's interesting to just take what people say about Sovereignty on face value;
Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation. Which is a feeling that our neighbours in Europe do not share obvs. Why not. Do we have more trust in our politicians and electoral system than they do it can't be but apparently so.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think one of the reasons Remain lost because they mistakenly believed Brexit was about economics. It wasn't. it was about sovereignty, identity, and representation.

I am not French or German or Italian or whatever. I have no problem with Europeans, but I don't want to be one. I am English, and want politics to be carried out as close to home as possible. Looking back on it, that is ultimately why I voted Brexit.

I’m not convinced by either argument.

Remain lost, fundamentally, because it was the campaign for the retention of the status quo. It offered no coherent reform agenda or any vision for a better future. Given it was the campaign of ALL mainstream political parties, the CBI, the Institute of Directors and those with high levels of cultural and economic capital this isn’t a surprise.

Second, the leave vote did have, in my view, a very explicit economic element. Part of the attraction of dumping the EU wasn’t just the fact that it’s undemocratic and set on a federal structure. At base, the EU is an economic idea and project after all. It renders rebuilding a national economy impossible. It blocks state aid and greater state ownership and it increasingly bullies and imposed austerity on countries who refused or simply couldn’t sign up to its neo-liberal economic orthodoxy.

 

[mojo pixy]

Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation.

Weirdly, many of these people no doubt feel that the 'glorious revolution' of 1688 was a good thing.

 

[bimble]

At base, the EU is an economic idea and project after all. It renders rebuilding a national economy impossible. It blocks state aid and greater state ownership and it increasingly bullies and imposed austerity on countries who refused or simply couldn’t sign up to its neo-liberal economic orthodoxy.

How do you explain that the rich and not at all bullied UK is the one who wanted to leave, whist the actual Greeks that people on here are always using as an example of the unacceptable face of the EU, were were strongly 'remain' even when at the height of being bullied and austeritied. Its obviously a very niche reason for the leave vote, yours, we know that but i think maybe you forget sometimes.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Aside from the identity stuff, it's interesting to just take what people say about Sovereignty on face value;
Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation. Which is a feeling that our neighbours in Europe do not share obvs. Why not. Do we have more trust in our politicians and electoral system than they do it can't be but apparently so.

If you read Tony Benn on this stuff Bimble you’ll see a line of argument that reframed this question in a very different manner to how you’ve posed it.

Benn said ‘The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but upon the sovereignty of the People, who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election.’

You can trace this specifically English idea back through the centuries back to The Levellers of 1646 and through the subsequent development of the earliest non-conformist and working class movements.

 

[bimble]

Seriously? So you think we have a more democratic system than other European countries or are you just saying we the British are the ones who bestowed the blessings of democracy upon the world so thats why we put more store in it than others do,

 

[Smokeandsteam]

How do you explain that the rich and not at all bullied UK is the one who wanted to leave, whist the actual Greeks that people on here are always using as an example of the unacceptable face of the EU, were were strongly 'remain' even when at the height of being bullied and austeritied. Its obviously a very niche reason for the leave vote, yours, we know that but i think maybe you forget sometimes.

Support for anti-EU parties is increasing across Europe on the left and right:

Support for Eurosceptic parties doubles in two decades across EU

Research reveals one in three voters now back parties that are critical of or hostile to the bloc

www.theguardian.com

 

[mojo pixy]

You can trace this specifically English idea back through the centuries back to The Levellers of 1646 and through the subsequent development of the earliest non-conformist and working class movements.

Yes, the French (to take just one example from our immediate neighbourhood) had a revolution (that was obvs nothing to do with the people), have a parliament of two elected chambers (that are obvs nothing to do with the people), have a written constitution (which anyone can read), and even elect their head of state (unlike the fantastically democratic UK where ours is born into it).

What a bastion of fairness and accountability we are, Mr. Benn

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

So now you have self governance ( ) and it's really clear that the wankers that govern you are as much on the take as the people they told you are on the take, the question is, what have you done about it? Now it's patently obvious you are getting mugged off by fascists.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

The best I can offer is voting for matt hancock to have to do another bush tucker challenge.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Seriously? So you think we have a more democratic system than other European countries or are you just saying we the British are the ones who bestowed the blessings of democracy upon the world so thats why we put more store in it than others do,

No, Bimble. I’m not arguing that the Levellers and the formative working class of England developed an idea of sovereignty to show Johnny Foreigner how it’s done.

Christ, why do I waste my time on here….

 

[Karl Masks]

Support for anti-EU parties is increasing across Europe on the left and right:

Support for Eurosceptic parties doubles in two decades across EU

Research reveals one in three voters now back parties that are critical of or hostile to the bloc

www.theguardian.com

Just look at the kinds of politician representing that position though

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yes, the French (to take just one example from our immediate neighbourhood) had a revolution (that was obvs nothing to do with the people), have a parliament of two elected chambers (that are obvs nothing to do with the people), have a written constitution (which anyone can read), and even elect their head of state (unlike the fantastically democratic UK where ours is born into it).

What a bastion of fairness and accountability we are, Mr. Benn

I was replying to Bimble’s post #12932

Bimble wasn’t arguing that French democracy was a better idea and I wasnt challenging it.

Don’t let that stop you though

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Just look at the kinds of politician representing that position though

The chart shows support for left and right anti-EU parties rising sharply. As the research shows their rise is a symptom, the causes of the symptoms is the EU itself.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Aside from the identity stuff, it's interesting to just take what people say about Sovereignty on face value;
Why did so many English feel that it would be an obvious plus for our own politicians to have full power over everything that goes on in the country without any meddling foreigners getting involved in our legislation. Which is a feeling that our neighbours in Europe do not share obvs. Why not. Do we have more trust in our politicians than they do it can't be.

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the levels of trust or even appreciations of competence. Of course the inverse position is not necessarily true of remainers; ie. they don't have to believe that all other European politicians are more trust worthy/competent than their UK counterparts.

Perhaps people felt that their Westminster MPs were more democratically accountable and 'closer' to them than their MEPs and the unelected/appointed EU policy makers.

I think the democratic point is pretty easy to argue (albeit with all the caveats and limitations that go with our parliamentary system). The notion of 'closeness' is of course an illusion, but it is at least explicable. The bottom line being that people's voting decisions are more complicated, diverse and nuanced than this thread sometimes allows for.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[mojo pixy]

I was replying to Bimble’s post #12932

Bimble wasn’t arguing that French democracy was a better idea and I wasnt challenging it.

Don’t let stop you though

Yeah I was arguing with Tony Benn really, but he's dead and you're not, and I strongly dispute the idea that there's something uniquely valuable or important about our version of parliamentary democracy. Especially when examining what it does, what it's done, and what it's likely to do.

 

[MrSki]

about this place is that there isn't abody on here who isn't a weirdo...

I was at this last weekend a felt that I fitted right in.

 

[Serge Forward]

True, but the thing about this place is that there isn't anybody on here who isn't a weirdo...

 

[bimble]

No, Bimble. I’m not arguing that the Levellers and the formative working class of England developed an idea of sovereignty to show Johnny Foreigner how it’s done.

Christ, why do I waste my time on here….

But what were you saying then?
The history lesson from tony benn and you is fine but what is the relevance of it to why we just left whilst the democracies next door don't seem much interested in reclaiming their sovereignty in this way.

Are you saying we value our national democratic system more than say the french do ?
If not that then what was the point of your history lesson.

 

[Serge Forward]

If you read Tony Benn on this stuff Bimble you’ll see a line of argument that reframed this question in a very different manner to how you’ve posed it.

Benn said ‘The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but upon the sovereignty of the People, who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election.’

You can trace this specifically English idea back through the centuries back to The Levellers of 1646 and through the subsequent development of the earliest non-conformist and working class movements.

The Levellers is a bit of a leap. You could say the same of the Muntzerites and the German peasant army of the 1520s... or not

 

[bimble]

It's a bit bonkers anyway, to claim that the idea that power is lent to the politicians by voting then given to the next one at an election is a "specifically English idea" . Sorry Tony. Athens is a bit older than 1646 isn't it.
And we only got to one man one vote about a hundred years ago, took bloody ages. Dunno if you can really say the hundreds of years when only that 5% of the population who were rich enough to be given a vote were a prize won by working class movements.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

But what were you saying then?
The history lesson from tony benn and you is fine but what is the relevance of it to why we just left whilst the democracies next door don't seem much interested in reclaiming their sovereignty in this way.

Are you saying we value our national democratic system more than say the french do ?
If not that then what was the point of your history lesson.

Can't you think of any other historical and structural reasons why many French people are more committed to the EU than their English and Welsh counterparts?

Just off the top of my head how about their country's experience of occupation as well as their founding and continuing central role in the EU?

The point I am making is that French people may have very different reasons for being pro EU, compared to the democratic deficit arguments of some UK antis.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[B.I.G]

It's a bit bonkers anyway, to claim that the idea that power is lent to the politicians by voting then given to the next one at an election is a "specifically English idea" . Sorry Tony. Its a bit older than 1646 isn't it that idea.

Other parliaments operate within a written constitution. Its a definite idea that English parliaments cannot bind another.

Its possible/probable that this is what he was thinking about.

 

[Serge Forward]

Aye, Mr Benn was always a bit rosy about the merits of the British parliament

 

[bimble]

Can't you think of any other historical and structural reasons why many French people are more committed to the EU than their English and Welsh counterparts?

Just off the top of my head how about their country's experience of occupation as well as their founding and continuing central role in the EU?

The point I am making is that French people may have very different reasons for being pro EU, compared to the democratic deficit arguments of some UK antis.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Absolutely, agree that experiences and national memories / mythologising of the war are a major factor. I think its true with me as well, my remoaner-ness has a lot to do with that.
The only place that has not been invaded for hundreds and hundreds of years, whilsy busily invading everyone else, being the one to cherish 'sovereignty' so highly is just an interesting thing.

 

[Humberto]

It's a bit bonkers anyway, to claim that the idea that power is lent to the politicians by voting then given to the next one at an election is a "specifically English idea" . Sorry Tony. Athens is a bit older than 1646 isn't it.
And we only got to one man one vote about a hundred years ago, took bloody ages. Dunno if you can really say the hundreds of years when only that 5% of the population who were rich enough to be given a vote were a prize won by working class movements.

As it stands that is effectively being limited now with ID now being required to vote.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Are you saying we value our national democratic system more than say the french do ?
If not that then what was the point of your history lesson.

2 quick points:

1. The French aren’t quite the fans of their own democratic system or the EU in the way they once might have been, the solid and growing vote for the Front National and Le Pen’s rise (another symptom rather than cause) indicates a deep dissatisfaction with both.
2. The point of the ‘history lesson’ was to respond to the query, made by you, in #12,933 about English notions of sovereignty.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Absolutely, agree that experiences and national memories / mythologising of the war are a major factor. I think its true with me as well, my remoaner-ness has a lot to do with that.
The only place that has not been invaded for hundreds and hundreds of years, whilsy busily invading everyone else, being the one to cherish 'sovereignty' so highly is just an interesting thing.

When call the midwife is among the most popular TV programs. Fake history porn does have it's fair share of blame.
Turns out the kids on why don't you? weren't lying.

 

[bimble]

The point of the ‘history lesson’ was to respond to the query, made by you, in #12,933 about English notions of sovereignty.

You suggesting that we value our sovereignty more because parliamentary democracy is "a specifically English idea" isn't a response that i was expecting but ok.