A thank you to Brexiteers.

[littlebabyjesus]

Given the clusterfuck that this brexit, the one that's actually happened, has been, I'd say that we should all have good reason to question how it was done and the rotten principles behind it. If you don't link the hostile environment towards refugees to the anti-immigration-enabling of brexit, I suggest you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I was under the impression that there had been some frothing in the usual dank corners of the Press about how UK citizens were being discriminated against in some (Iberian, I think) airports. I can't say that I was really paying all that much attention.

One or two gammons ranting doesn't count as outrage. The passport control issue that's causing problems is the UK border for all nationalities, under our esteemed home sec it has gone totally to shit, with >2 hour queues becoming very normal. This started with Covid as passenger locator forms needed to be checked which took time, but is now just a massive understaffing issue.

 

[bimble]

4 times it’s been delayed already, the implementation of the brilliant plan. It’s just embarrassing really.

New approach to import controls to help ease cost of living

The Government has concluded that it would be wrong to impose new administrative requirements on businesses who may pass-on the associated costs to consumers.

www.gov.uk

Rees-Mogg set to delay post-Brexit fresh food checks for fourth time

Minister expected to frame move as a use of UK’s independent powers despite industry reports of unreadiness

www.theguardian.com

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

One or two gammons ranting doesn't count as outrage. The passport control issue that's causing problems is the UK border for all nationalities, under our esteemed home sec it has gone totally to shit, with >2 hour queues becoming very normal. This started with Covid as passenger locator forms needed to be checked which took time, but is now just a massive understaffing issue.

Eh? No one checked my plf when I visited last. In fact I felt a bit mugged off. But that’s par for the course in the UK nowadays

 

[brogdale]

4 times it’s been delayed already, the implementation of the brilliant plan. It’s just embarrassing really.

New approach to import controls to help ease cost of living

The Government has concluded that it would be wrong to impose new administrative requirements on businesses who may pass-on the associated costs to consumers.

www.gov.uk

Rees-Mogg set to delay post-Brexit fresh food checks for fourth time

Minister expected to frame move as a use of UK’s independent powers despite industry reports of unreadiness

www.theguardian.com

'Nationalist neoliberalism' eating itself...

 

[Rob Ray]

this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was

It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.

Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it seemed painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people, worsened by bullying from greater powers, which would probably last for most of the rest of my life. I'm still hoping to be wrong.

 

[T & P]

It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.

Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it was painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people which would probably last for most of the rest of my life.

The elephant in the room that Lexists continue to ignore, and and fail to address when brought up in this forum, is that Brexit permanently and irrevocably fucked up the livelihoods, prospects and often lives of millions of ordinary working class people, both here and in the Continent, by voting for a system that automatically removed freedom of movement/ right to settle for everyone in this country, and those in the EU wishing to come here. In many cases this has already resulted in families being broken up or forced to live apart. A odious atrocity and heartbreaking tragedy needlessly imposed upon countless ordinary good people that I fucking hope will prey on the minds of those who voted for Brexit until the day they die.

 

[Rob Ray]

He goes into some depth on the immediate/near-term impact in the below 2021 interview where his argument is on the lines of "it's not been as bad as Remainers were saying it'd be." Unsaid here but implicit (and sometimes explicit elsewhere) is the idea that sacrifice in the short term is justified by gains in the longer term. So fairly much in line with what most pro-Brexit people reckon really, albeit with a leftie twist.



Again as someone who was not personally convinced that the payoff would be worth the damage, it is logical within the Lexit framework. Plus there's more or less reasonable additions that can be made since regarding the increased severity of what's happening now with the post-pandemic inflation spiral, global energy/food shortages etc that they could not have been predicted in the 2015-16 campaign period. How much of that would be accurate and how much obfuscation is difficult to say.

 

[philosophical]

I would say the above podcast is bollocks because it does not address what leave means in terms of the land border.
It is all very well indulging in theoretical mental gymnastics, but there are practical issues to respect, for example if your house has it’s kitchen in one system, and your bathroom in another.
Or there is a border between two systems with over 200 crossing points.
So where are the practical solutions from the so called left wing pro Brexit forces?

 

[bimble]

The elephant in the room that Lexists continue to ignore, and and fail to address when brought up in this forum, is that Brexit permanently and irrevocably fucked up the livelihoods, prospects and often lives of millions of ordinary working class people, both here and in the Continent, by voting for a system that automatically removed freedom of movement/ right to settle for everyone in this country, and those in the EU wishing to come here. In many cases this has already resulted in families being broken up or forced to live apart. A odious atrocity and heartbreaking tragedy needlessly imposed upon countless ordinary good people that I fucking hope will prey on the minds of those who voted for Brexit until the day they die.

No no only posh people go abroad, or people who are coming here to depress our wages.

 

[Rob Ray]

I would say the above podcast is bollocks because it does not address what leave means in terms of the land border.

Not addressing a specific concern of yours doesn't make a thing bollocks, it just means a particular point remains unaddressed. Tbh the tone of "Remainers" with this stuff is one of the reasons I don't engage with the conversation much - it's all "AHAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS" as though at some point you'll get the (absent) foe to admit to their idiocy by cornering them on 'Issue 593 of Why Brexit Is Bad'. They won't, and it's a poor approach to take if you want to either understand them or change minds (if that's your aim, rather than just I dunno, indulging yourself in a bit of an anger wank).

 

[Ax^]

i take to the idea that philoso is from north ireland so take the land boarder issue inside of ireland
as a little bit of a serious concern that some of us down in london or other parts of england

i can understand it diggin up issue in north ireland is not a good idea

hey its why the american president thinks Boris Johnson is a gobshite

 

[Doctor Carrot]

It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.

Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it seemed painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people, worsened by bullying from greater powers, which would probably last for most of the rest of my life. I'm still hoping to be wrong.

I think it will last for the rest of your life. I see the whole left revival thing punted by lexiters as being in the same bracket as people like Rees-Mogg saying we'll see economic benefits in 50 years time. Oh goody, 50 years eh? Voting for something that might happen in 50 years time is obviously what normal people base their votes on.

I too voted remain for the same reasons as you. Anyone could see it would be a shit show but then it would've been a shit show had remain won because Cameron would've stayed in office. What a country!

In the end I think most people on here want lexiters to be right but I just see very little sign of it even in the medium term. Long term perhaps but that will have very little, if anything, to do with Brexit and more to do with a failing eco system that may or may not force us to cooperate more with each other.

 

[Yossarian]

The referendum was almost six years ago, I think it could be time to move on from referring to people as Remainers, Lexiters, and "Brexiteers" - Britain has exited the EU under a Tory government so the first two describe advocates of actions that are no longer possible and the third describes advocates of a process that has already been completed.

I think it's also time to stop Brexit-shaming those who voted Leave, to better draw a distinction between Brexit as a concept and the mess the Tories have made of it, right now we seem to be in a bizarre situation where supporters of the former feel compelled to defend the latter.

 

[Artaxerxes]

It's not online afaik, but Rob Griffiths wrote in to the Star recently essentially arguing that the Lexit campaign always knew the outcome of leaving the EU would be an almighty battle for the future of Britain, but that battle was one worth having and even if lost, the act of Brexit would permanently leave more room for future left reform than staying would have. So in that part of the left's mind it's not about whether there's benefits now, or even in the medium term.

Personally I voted remain because while I actually semi-agree with the sentiment in terms of the direction and MO of the EU it seemed painfully obvious that the outcome of Leave in the way it went down would not lead to a left revival but a long era of chaotic, unfettered neoliberal war on working class people, worsened by bullying from greater powers, which would probably last for most of the rest of my life. I'm still hoping to be wrong.

Oh I agree a leftist cause is worth fighting for brexit over it’s just there was none available, to fragmented to poor and every means of getting a left message across because the only left person about was an old fart and his antisemitic mates in the face of a locked down media

 

[philosophical]

Not addressing a specific concern of yours doesn't make a thing bollocks, it just means a particular point remains unaddressed. Tbh the tone of "Remainers" with this stuff is one of the reasons I don't engage with the conversation much - it's all "AHAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS" as though at some point you'll get the (absent) foe to admit to their idiocy by cornering them on 'Issue 593 of Why Brexit Is Bad'. They won't, and it's a poor approach to take if you want to either understand them or change minds (if that's your aim, rather than just I dunno, indulging yourself in a bit of an anger wank).

I disagree with you because I see my concern about the land border as the fundamental concern attached to the word 'leave', not some side issue number 593.
I am not concerned about changing minds as wanting leave voters to deal with the practicality they voted for.
We disagree if I see peace in Ireland as an absolute fundamental, and you see it as some mere afterthought down the list in position 593.
In order to understand why people voted leave I need to understand why they voted that way when it risks fucking up a very hard won (and flawed) Belfast Agreement.
What would you say are the 593 more important issues that flow from the leave victory?

 

[philosophical]

The referendum was almost six years ago, I think it could be time to move on from referring to people as Remainers, Lexiters, and "Brexiteers" - Britain has exited the EU under a Tory government so the first two describe advocates of actions that are no longer possible and the third describes advocates of a process that has already been completed.

I think it's also time to stop Brexit-shaming those who voted Leave, to better draw a distinction between Brexit as a concept and the mess the Tories have made of it, right now we seem to be in a bizarre situation where supporters of the former feel compelled to defend the latter.

'Britain' might have somehow exited the UK under a Tory government, but not the 'UK' which is what was voted for on the ballot paper.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I am not concerned about changing minds as wanting leave voters to deal with the practicality they voted for.

That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the responsibilities of the electorate, but I guess we all need a hobby.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Eh? No one checked my plf when I visited last. In fact I felt a bit mugged off. But that’s par for the course in the UK nowadays

The UK was the first in Europe to drop all restrictions. But when they were in place you wouldn't have been able to board the flight without it being lodged in the system.

 

[Rob Ray]

I didn't characterise it as a side issue philosophical, I said not addressing it didn't make the whole interview bollocks. A shortcoming would be fair enough to say. The "issue 593" thing was not aimed at you specifically either, rather a general trend.

 

[Dystopiary]

The elephant in the room that Lexists continue to ignore, and and fail to address when brought up in this forum, is that Brexit permanently and irrevocably fucked up the livelihoods, prospects and often lives of millions of ordinary working class people, both here and in the Continent, by voting for a system that automatically removed freedom of movement/ right to settle for everyone in this country, and those in the EU wishing to come here. In many cases this has already resulted in families being broken up or forced to live apart. A odious atrocity and heartbreaking tragedy needlessly imposed upon countless ordinary good people that I fucking hope will prey on the minds of those who voted for Brexit until the day they die.

Totally agree with you on this, but the last bit I don't feel, cause I don't think people were given anywhere near enough info. It was thrown out there by Cameron and I don't feel that level of angry with people who voted in favour, though I do feel bloody frustrated, particularly with people still banging on about how it was a good thing. (And the xenophobes can piss right off obviously.) I hate how divisive it's been.

In an ideal world there'd be no EU, it's essentially a capitalist trading bloc, but (maybe not the best analogy) you're not going to tell your boss to shove it or tell the DWP to get bent when you've got no other means to live. The Brexit vote gave other people the chance to do that for the rest. Plus how the hell anyone thought even the shower of shit in Wesrminster at the time would do a halfway decent job of anything, I have no idea.

No no only posh people go abroad, or people who are coming here to depress our wages.

Yeah, I think lexiters really don't get how taking away freedom of movement has absolutely bollocksed it for people.

And honestly, I think Brexit fans who aren't adversely affected by it are going to keep being sneery about cause they just don't get it. They have a good job, an alternative passport, or just a strong belief that this will one day be wonderful for the workers of the UK. So

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Yeah, I think lexiters really don't get how taking away freedom of movement has absolutely bollocksed it for people.

It's not only bollocksed things up in the actual removal of rights to live and work where you want it's not even good for workers in this country.

One of the main reasons people voted to leave was because of the perception that cheaper EU labour was undercutting wages. A fair enough reason but what's now happening is workers from outside the EU are now coming to work here and are coming in greater numbers than EU workers. How this wasn't predicted by a lot more people is beyond me. I saw it coming a mile off and I don't consider myself particularly impressive at making predictions like this.

 

[sleaterkinney]

On seeing everything through the brexit prism, this is explicitly a brexit government, made up of vote leave people, elected on an “oven ready” deal which is unraveling in NI and like the whole thing was a pack of lies. The other things that they are pushing now, voter Id, hotel Rwanda, the lack of help for p&o, this is their politics and they are there in power, able to carry them out because of brexit.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

The UK was the first in Europe to drop all restrictions. But when they were in place you wouldn't have been able to board the flight without it being lodged in the system.

But why would that have caused delays at passport control?
When no one was checking shit? Paying 50 odd quid for a 2 day test that wasn’t reported back for 8 days.
Also they weren’t the first to drop all restrictions. Cos that was where I live.
Nowhere else in Europe implemented such a system of wealth dispersal to Tory mates.

 

[ska invita]

One of the main reasons people voted to leave was because of the perception that cheaper EU labour was undercutting wages. A fair enough reason but what's now happening is workers from outside the EU are now coming to work here and are coming in greater numbers than EU workers.

...and crucially coming with less rights and less protections
...points based immigration is class-based immigration
...its a step back for european working class people, on that level

 

[gosub]

Yes, but to what extent is Brexit solely to blame? It's difficult to extrapolate the carnage from both COVID and what's happening in Eastern Europe.

+ the closing of Rough

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

But why would that have caused delays at passport control?
When no one was checking shit? Paying 50 odd quid for a 2 day test that wasn’t reported back for 8 days.
Also they weren’t the first to drop all restrictions. Cos that was where I live.
Nowhere else in Europe implemented such a system of wealth dispersal to Tory mates.

They were checking it again at passport control as they hadn't sorted out a system where the airlines could transmit the data to Border Force, yet the airline would be fined by HMG if they failed to check all was in order before carrying a passenger, so queues at check in and at passport control.

so they weren’t the first to drop all restrictions.

Apologies, I meant to say "first major travel destination to drop restrictions." - of course Mexico never had any restrictions at all, so technically they were first.

 

[bimble]

Its quite something, this bit by Rees-Mogg (Minister for Brexit Opportunities) the other day.
Here he is explaining that the reason they have yet again delayed the implementation of brexit is that it would be an act of self harm to go through with it.


They'll probably keep kicking it down the road until just before next election, if not for ever, but for him of all people to actually have said this out loud on camera is kind of amazing.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The British papers of course being written by solid working class credential journalists

 

[Ax^]

Spain airport gives Irish tourists 'preferential treatment' leaving Brits angry

Spain airport sees Irish tourists given 'preferential treatment' as angry Brits watch on, Malaga Airport has been accused by British passport holders of giving Irish passengers "preferential treatment" with an "express lane" as they watch on from a separate queue