A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Pickman's model]

I cannot speak for all lexiters but this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was in the first place

All this lovely debate

 

[andysays]

Post-Brexit trade barriers increase price of food imported from EU – report

Thinktank finds ‘clear and robust impact’ of Brexit on rising food prices, adding to cost of living crisis

www.theguardian.com

Food prices rose 6% thanks to Brexit. Not covid, not Ukraine...Brexit (according to the LSE). You can maybe dodge the bullet if you stick to eating tuna and pineapples - you know, low food miles items.

If you're interested in getting the complete picture, rather than just looking for support for a position you're already convinced of, it's probably good to read to the end of the article, rather than just the headline and first few paras, especially if it's the Guardian

Jonathan Portes, a senior research fellow at UKICE, said: “While Brexit is not the main driver of rising inflation or the cost of living crisis, this report provides clear evidence that it has led to a substantial increase in food prices

So if food prices have risen by 6% because of Brexit, that suggests the broader cost of living has gone up by more than 6% for non-Brexit reasons.

 

[Maggot]

If you're interested in getting the complete picture, rather than just looking for support for a position you're already convinced of, it's probably good to read to the end of the article, rather than just the headline and first few paras, especially if it's the Guardian



So if food prices have risen by 6% because of Brexit, that suggests the broader cost of living has gone up by more than 6% for non-Brexit reasons.

Not all the price rises are caused by Brexit, just some of them. What a ringing endorsement of leaving the EU!

 

[brogdale]

A reminder of happier, more optimistic (pre-Brexit) times...

 

[Ax^]

i like we got to stage were defending brexit is now at the stage where whilst it maybe bad thing,

but its not as bad a global pandemic or a war on Europes doorstep

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

i like we got to stage were defending brexit is now at the stage where whilst it maybe bad thing,

but its not as bad a global pandemic or a war on Europes doorstep

You seem to be overlooking that with food going up in price waistlines will go down, people will be in better shape, as will the NHS. Dunno why you hate people and the NHS so much?

 

[Ax^]

aye hear shiverring burns calories as well

so this winter the NHS will be in the best shape in years..

 

[contadino]

Ah, malnutrition as a Brexit benefit..? Not one that I remember being dawbed on the side of a bus, but add it to the list.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Gas and energy bills were meant to decrease to as we’d not be shackled to Europe

 

[gosub]

Gas and energy bills were meant to decrease to as we’d not be shackled to Europe

reopen Rough.

 

[Ax^]

Gas and energy bills were meant to decrease to as we’d not be shackled to Europe

Well at least the people who swallowed that lie were duped

hate linking to twitter but alas

 

[RedRedRose]

Yes, but to what extent is Brexit solely to blame? It's difficult to extrapolate the carnage from both COVID and what's happening in Eastern Europe.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I cannot speak for all lexiters but this thread is 341 pages long and we yet to find out what the benefit of leaving was in the first place

Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.

As for the latest nonsense: that the cost of living crisis is caused by Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not engage.

Infantile arguments citing Brexit ‘as the cause of everything bad’ rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having. There are serious things to discuss instead

 

[brogdale]

Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.

As for the latest nonsense: that Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not bother to engage. Fantasies that Brexit rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy, all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having

Interesting take.

In what way(s) do you regard Brexit/Lexit supporters as any more relevant?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Interesting take.

In what way(s) do you regard Brexit/Lexit supporters as any more relevant?

I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that remainers continue to believe that their arguments/complaints hold some sort of relevance or weight.

 

[philosophical]

Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.

As for the latest nonsense: that Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not bother to engage. Fantasies that Brexit rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy, all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having

Maybe things can only be ‘let go’ when leavers provide a comprehensive solution for the issue of the UK/EU land border in Ireland that they voted for which clashes with the intention of the Belfast Agreement.
The ones with psychological issues over this matter are those who voted leave, but then doublethink themselves into believing the border will sort itself out.
Until lexiters resolve the border issue, remainers will be absolutely relevant.

 

[bimble]

I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that remainers continue to believe that their arguments/complaints hold some sort of relevance or weight.

The victors get to write history and the vanquished (thats everyone in the country who didn't queue up to vote leave 6 years ago) should know their place and shut up forever about anything to do with the effects of brexit, the losers. That totally makes sense yeah, especially if you're boris johnson.

I can't be arsed with it anymore but seriously, if you'\re still looking at the world as divided between these two tribes brexiters & remainers who do you think benefits from you doing that.

 

[Ax^]

Leta get this right. You can’t speak for lexiters because you weren’t and aren’t one. Just like I definitely wouldn’t want to speak to the question of when Remainers are going to be psychologically able to let things go and accept their irrelevance.

As for the latest nonsense: that the cost of living crisis is caused by Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not engage.

Infantile arguments citing Brexit ‘as the cause of everything bad’ rather than an energy shock, China/ Covid and a unique violent normalization of the world economy all operating at the same time, isn’t a debate worth having. There are serious things to discuss instead

and here's to another 341 pages

 

[existentialist]

Yes, but to what extent is Brexit solely to blame? It's difficult to extrapolate the carnage from both COVID and what's happening in Eastern Europe.

I don't think anyone could seriously suggest that Brexit is solely to blame. But I think it is equally true to say that the protestations of pro-Brexit types that, because there are other confounding factors like Covid in play, there is no way to attribute any of the carnage to Brexit.

And there are things which ARE quite clearly Brexit-related. Look at the outrage at how UK citizens are having to queue longer at airports than their European counterparts, for example, or the stories of UK businesses no longer able to take orders from Eurozone customers because the paperwork burden and costs are so onerous - it's pretty hard to lay those at the door of Covid or the war in Ukraine.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The victors get to write history and the vanquished (thats everyone in the country who didn't queue up to vote leave 6 years ago) should know their place and shut up forever about anything to do with the effects of brexit, the losers. That totally makes sense yeah, especially if you're boris johnson.

I can't be arsed with it anymore but seriously, if you'\re still looking at the world as divided between these two tribes brexiters & remainers who do you think benefits from you doing that.

On your first paragraph, I think you misunderstand my point. I'm arguing that Remain as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless. As the traces of the forms of post neo-liberalism take shape there are some cogent arguments for the structure and agglomerated benefits of the EU (I should be clear that in over 350 pages on here NONE of those arguments have been advanced or discussed by remainers, which does tell us something very important in itself) but in Britain the debate is settled for a generation. It's done. It's over.

Despite that reality, there are remainers who vocally pronounce on every issue - rising inflation, P&O Ferries, global demand and prices, capital flight: the list is endless - as being related in some mysterious way 'to Brexit'. Normally this is pronounced in a way that suggests that Remainers are wise and predicted that all of this would happen. This practice gives rise to two problems. Firstly, what they are saying isn't actually true and is widely known to be untrue, making their irrelevance deeper and more abundantly clear. Secondly, its profoundly disorientating for middle class politics, because whilst remaniners are stuck in 2016 the world isn't. We've had perma-crisis since: Covid, War, global economic shocks etc. The failure to understand, discuss and engage with the questions being thrown up in 2022 is further politically paralyzing this layer of society thereby further increasing its rage. It's a vicious circle: the more the irrelevance, the more aggressive the assertion that 'Brexit is to blame'.

My own view on this is that Brexit has become some sort of signifier for a wider trauma within middle class liberalism and reflects, among the petit bourgeois and the PMC, its deep level of disorientation and frustration. It's politics are in retreat across the globe, it's all at sea in a 'culture war' it can't fully understand, its economic position is eroding in the same way our class suffered in the 80's and its role as the narrating class becomes ever more contingent. While Brexit is triggering: because it speaks to a number of those issues, what we are really dealing with here is some sort of middle class psychological episode.

On your second paragraph, I'm not.

Hope that clarifies matters.

 

[philosophical]

On your first paragraph, I think you misunderstand my point. I'm arguing that Remain as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless. As the traces of the forms of post neo-liberalism take shape there are some cogent arguments for the structure and agglomerated benefits of the EU (I should be clear that in over 350 pages on here NONE of those arguments have been advanced or discussed by remainers, which does tell us something very important in itself) but in Britain the debate is settled for a generation. It's done. It's over.

Despite that reality, there are remainers who vocally pronounce on every issue - rising inflation, P&O Ferries, global demand and prices, capital flight: the list is endless - as being related in some mysterious way 'to Brexit'. Normally this is pronounced in a way that suggests that Remainers are wise and predicted that all of this would happen. This practice gives rise to two problems. Firstly, what they are saying isn't actually true and is widely known to be untrue, making their irrelevance deeper and more abundantly clear. Secondly, its profoundly disorientating for middle class politics, because whilst remaniners are stuck in 2016 the world isn't. We've had perma-crisis since: Covid, War, global economic shocks etc. The failure to understand, discuss and engage with the questions being thrown up in 2022 is further politically paralyzing this layer of society thereby further increasing its rage. It's a vicious circle: the more the irrelevance, the more aggressive the assertion that 'Brexit is to blame'.

My own view on this is that Brexit has become some sort of signifier for a wider trauma within middle class liberalism and reflects, among the petit bourgeois and the PMC, its deep level of disorientation and frustration. It's politics are in retreat across the globe, it's all at sea in a 'culture war' it can't fully understand, its economic position is eroding in the same way our class suffered in the 80's and its role as the narrating class becomes ever more contingent. While Brexit is triggering: because it speaks to a number of those issues, what we are really dealing with here is some sort of middle class psychological episode.

On your second paragraph, I'm not.

Hope that clarifies matters.

If you are a lexiter an issue that is grounded in reality is the land border in Ireland between the UK and the EU.
Are you psychologically able to accept responsibility for that aspect of leave?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I don't think anyone could seriously suggest that Brexit is solely to blame. But I think it is equally true to say that the protestations of pro-Brexit types that, because there are other confounding factors like Covid in play, there is no way to attribute any of the carnage to Brexit.

And there are things which ARE quite clearly Brexit-related. Look at the outrage at how UK citizens are having to queue longer at airports than their European counterparts, for example, or the stories of UK businesses no longer able to take orders from Eurozone customers because the paperwork burden and costs are so onerous - it's pretty hard to lay those at the door of Covid or the war in Ukraine.

Where's this outrage then? The only outrage I've heard about is the ludicrously long waits to cross the UK border at airports for all nationalities in the past 18 months.

 

[existentialist]

Where's this outrage then? The only outrage I've heard about is the ludicrously long waits to cross the UK border at airports for all nationalities in the past 18 months.

I was under the impression that there had been some frothing in the usual dank corners of the Press about how UK citizens were being discriminated against in some (Iberian, I think) airports. I can't say that I was really paying all that much attention.

 

[Ax^]

Where's this outrage then? The only outrage I've heard about is the ludicrously long waits to cross the UK border at airports for all nationalities in the past 18 months.

quite sure the dippy ex pat who spent most of the year living in Spain and similar place were less than happy when it was pointed out to bugger off home

 

[teuchter]

I'm arguing that Remain as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless.

I think that what you really mean is that Brexit as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless.

And this is equally true or untrue whether the person looking through the prism voted remain or leave or neither in the referendum.

 

[philosophical]

Why is it useless?
In political and social terms ‘Brexit’ (whatever that is supposed to mean) is a chance to reflect on the concept of ‘nations’ and cooperation/collaboration between people on a shared planet.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think that what you really mean is that Brexit as praxis, as a prism through which to understand economic, political or social issues is objectively useless.

And this is equally true or untrue whether the person looking through the prism voted remain or leave or neither in the referendum.

I agree. Although I am unaware of any 'lexiters' who do that.

 

[bimble]

Smokeandsteam I didn't realise that when you talk about Remainers what you're actually talking about are some people who exist (where?) who six years on are unable to perceive anything in the world apart from though the prism of brexit and how brexit is bad. I haven't come across those people & if they exist they are extremely irrelevant i agree.

but this bit

what we are really dealing with here is some sort of middle class psychological episode.

i think you've got a point there, something similar to 'trump derangement syndrome' (stupid name but a phenomenon that did exist) where all those educated urbane people were left reeling by the shock of how they hadn't seen it coming & what was revealed about the world which they'd previously thought they understood.

 

[Cerv]

As for the latest nonsense: that the cost of living crisis is caused by Brexit rather than a global inflation surge as spending on goods increases I’ll not engage.

Has anyone seriously suggested that?
Or in fact that Brexit has made a non-trivial contribution to the problem, and will continue to do so, and its contribution will get worse when the Brexit project is further implemented (e.g. the 4 times delayed customs checks).

There is no need to pretend it's an either/or that Brexit is perfectly blameless or the total cause of all life's problems.

 

[brogdale]

I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing that remainers continue to believe that their arguments/complaints hold some sort of relevance or weight.

Well they do; precisely as much as yours...that's surely the salient point?